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Thread: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

  1. #101
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    1. Pink unicorns, gummy bear scoffing marshmallows (giant or otherwise) is a belittling tactic, rather than a logical argument.
    You’re missing the point. The point is to show that when trying to bring a claim such as yours into the realms of science, each one is comparatively illogical.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    2. What people experience (and believe in) isn't the same thing as something that's clearly (and ludicrously) made up.
    Really? A lot of people believe they were abducted by aliens. They swear blind and say they absolutely experienced. Does that prove that aliens exist and visit us regularly? Hardly. A lot of people believe in all sorts of things that are clearly (and ludicrously) made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    3. Where are the millions of credible people who've seen pink unicorns (minus the price tag) or giant marshmallows (and not happen to be watching Ghostbusters)? Whereas in a recent study (2018) three out of five people believe they've seen a 'ghost'.
    There’s that word again. “Believe”.

    Believing you seen something gets you nowhere in science. This is the point to my whole argument. This isn’t a new thing, it’s not like people haven’t been claiming to witness paranormal activity for as long as anyone can remember, but for all those stories and all those people “believing” in seeing ghosts there is still not one shred of credible scientific evidence to back any of it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    4. I was 9 years old when I saw the human form/ghost at the bottom of our stairs, not 19, listening to Jimi Hendrix, and off my face on magic mushrooms.
    Regardless of age or whichever hallucinated states you were or weren’t in, there are still far more logical explanations to your experience than it being a literal ghost. This is another point I think you’re missing, I can’t say you absolutely didn’t see a ghost, I don’t have the evidence to do that. On the other side of that, though, you don’t have the evidence to say that you did. So all we’re really left with is what is the most logical explanation? Even you must agree that “it was definitely a ghost” isn’t that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    5. To compare a human form (regardless of whether you believe me or not) to a giant gummy bear scoffing marshmallow is ridiculous and insulting.
    It’s not my intent to insult you so I apologise if I have. All I’m saying is that claims of something “paranormal” should be treated with the same scepticism as any other “out there” claim. My examples are extremely ridiculous, of course, but it’s more tongue in cheek rather than an attempt to insult or degrade so again, my bad for coming across that way.



    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    The sentence that I've put in bold is why you are a closed-minded 'sceptic'.

    You cannot use the word 'zero' and be considered a sceptic because zero leaves no room for doubt, and the last time I checked, sceptical means having reservations or doubts - not a raging case of bias.
    Well I can use that word when talking of the existence of scientific evidence. You’ve used examples of lots of people “believing” they’ve seen a ghost as evidence of the afterlife. You’ve used examples of scientists believing the same. It would only be scientific evidence if there had been proper scientific tests and scrutiny carried out in order to prove or disprove the idea. So yes, when saying that there is zero scientific evidence of the afterlife or ghosts, I’m not wrong. If there were scientific evidence, you wouldn’t need to “believe” anything, it would already be proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    Your attitude (and that of many other 'sceptics') seems to be that unless science can prove the afterlife - it does not exist. So, in that case, everything that science has proved so far mustn't have existed until it was discovered and proven.
    Nonsense. My position is that there’s no point in “believing” in something unless it’s testable. Where does it end if that’s not the case? I don’t believe in the afterlife because I have no reason to. There’s no scientific evidence for it. It’s for those same reasons I don’t believe in numerology, astrology or someone being able to see my future by looking into a ball. If evidence becomes available then sure, I’m all ears, but it never does. It all, once again, boils down to “belief”.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    Why do you presume I haven't explored other explanations, Gary? Is it because you see me as many 'sceptics' see people like me - as in gullible and 'a bit thick'?
    I see it more as perhaps wanting to believe in something rather than trying to reach the most logical explanation. Hey, that doesn’t make you gullible or “thick”, it makes you human. That’s kind of my larger point, you’re a human being with emotions, all kinds of ways that your brain can trick you and all kinds of ways that your emotions can confirm that trick. That’s indeed been proven by science. It just makes you normal, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    What fascinates me is why it should matter to you if people believe in the afterlife or not?
    For the same reasons it matters to you that people believe your version of events. It’s not like this debate is a one way street.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    What is it to you if I believe that my deceased grandmother visited me that morning?
    You made the original argument that there was evidence of the afterlife. You used your experience as this evidence. It was you who brought this up. I can’t argue against it using an example of something you didn’t bring up, can I? I defend the idea of scepticism because I believe it’s a good life skill. Other than that, I couldn’t really care less if you believe in whatever you want. As I said, I’m pretty sure I’m not changing your mind here.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    'Real' or not, it was one of the most joyous experiences of my life, and the memory of it keeps me going on my bad days. And that's what really matters...
    Something I can’t and won’t disagree with. This isn’t about me trying to take that away, I’m merely defending a position. I hope this does continue to bring you joy.
    Last edited by Gary A; 02-12-20 at 12:51.

  2. #102
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolalee1 View Post
    Good ol’ Magic Mushies or Gold Tops,now they were something else I remember seeing ET riding a Harley through the sky.
    I thought I was Wonder Woman tried to fly lucky it was only off the roof,I don’t remember that the nurse in hospital told me. I don’t touch em now.
    Must have been powerful drugs, I didn't think Harley could do bikes that worked on roads let alone the sky? (Or so I've seen a far few bikers say about Harley).

    You are a Triumph gal aren't you, Lola? Whenever I go into town someone has a Tiger parked up. A right beast!
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  3. #103
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoraB View Post
    The near death experience (NDE) as IANDS explains it is a 'recognisable event' which happens when someone is close to death or in a situation of emotional or physical stress.

    What kind of things did your wife say?



    Schizophrenia?



    Out of interest, how much research have you put into near death experiences?

    Maybe you could explain how almost every near death experiencer reports a reluctance to get back into their body (and live) given that we are hardwired for survival?

    Also, could you explain to me why many people come back with information that they didn't previously know - like a brother or sister that had been kept secret out of shame. Or news of events to happen - and they do happen.

    Organisations like IANDS exist because there is a LOT more to it than you claim.
    With respect Nora, I'm not getting into this with you again.

    The idea that people come back with 'information' they didn't know before is ridiculous, and I'm not even going to entertain a response to it.

    I respect your position, I just won't get into a debate about something you believe in.

  4. #104
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Guys, I think there comes a point where we need to cut some slack. Debunking for the sake of it or for some misplaced sense of pride gets tiresome. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with Nora's claims, she's not doing any harm. It reminds me of my bricklaying days when we took on a chap as a labourer who was also a committed born again Christian. I spent hours gleefully debunking the Bible, asking him why it makes no mention of dinosaurs etc. And in the end all I felt was guilt that I'd tried to undermine something that was an integral part of his life.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by ankietyjoe View Post

    I respect your position, I just won't get into a debate about something you believe in.
    Sorry Joe didn't see this.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    I wasn't ever trying to debunk Nora, I was merely offering my views on things she was posting. It was science that was being debunked (heavily) so I just backed out. I found it quite ironic that the 'open minded' side of the argument was so rigid in opinion, so any further discussion became pointless.

  7. #107
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Well I think that this is a very interesting debate and no one is going to back down. I'm learning a lot.

  8. #108
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    It is an interesting debate.

    Consider my back downed though lol.

  9. #109
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsTerry View Post
    Must have been powerful drugs, I didn't think Harley could do bikes that worked on roads let alone the sky? (Or so I've seen a far few bikers say about Harley).

    You are a Triumph gal aren't you, Lola? Whenever I go into town someone has a Tiger parked up. A right beast!

    Howdy Terry, I bought a Harley a Soft Tail it’s a nice bike.
    Gold top mushies are powerful and deadly I have never had them since that episode,bloody scary.

  10. #110
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    Re: Random Acts of Kindness, or God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A View Post
    Really? A lot of people believe they were abducted by aliens. They swear blind and say they absolutely experienced. Does that prove that aliens exist and visit us regularly? Hardly. A lot of people believe in all sorts of things that are clearly (and ludicrously) made up.
    Of course it doesn't PROVE it. It does SUGGEST it though, eh?

    but for all those stories and all those people “believing” in seeing ghosts there is still not one shred of credible scientific evidence to back any of it up.
    Paranormal definition: Events of phenomena which are BEYOND THE SCOPE OF NORMAL SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING.

    Just because science hasn't been able to prove these things yet doesn't mean they do not exist - as was my point about things 'not existing' until discovered and proved.

    With the paranormal, we are dealing with something that isn't within our control in order to measure it scientifically. However, your life is full of personal experiences which you 'know' to be real but have not been proven by the scientific method..

    My theory is that humans do like to be in control. I'm autistic, and I understand that more than most, but the difference with me is that my paranormal experiences formed my belief that consciousness survives biological death. There is a wealth of evidence to support this, but I guess it depends on what you define as evidence. You require something that's solid and tangible, and science relies on this in order to measure something, but ghosts are not solid, so we have a problem. Except that my idea of evidence differs to yours. Having had the paranormal experience of seeing a ghost - I am unable to dismiss it as easily as you can.

    Regardless of age or whichever hallucinated states you were or weren’t in, there are still far more logical explanations to your experience than it being a literal ghost.
    Except that you are making those presumptions without knowing me.

    On the other side of that, though, you don’t have the evidence to say that you did. So all we’re really left with is what is the most logical explanation? Even you must agree that “it was definitely a ghost” isn’t that.
    Have I ever used the word definitely? I try to be mindful of terminology. Definitely leaves no room for doubt, and, despite my obvious bias, I am not so biased that I work in absolutes.

    I saw the human form of what I perceived to be a girl around my own age. She had long hair - down to her waist - and also, no legs- which struck me as odd. The landing light was on. The hall light wasn't, but the kitchen door was open and so the hall was sufficiently lit so that I could easily see everything - including this child who appeared to be looking up at me and I saw her as I stepped onto the first step on the half-landing as there were two other steps above that and to the right. I also remember not feeling scared. I was curious more than anything. I could hear the TV in the background and it was early evening. Of course I accept that it could have been my mind playing tricks on me, except that this 'ghost' isn't what I expected going on ghosts depicted on TV. Why would my brain summon her up without any legs? There was also a sense of sadness which came from nowhere. I remember not feeling scared, but the atmosphere was of a low vibration - in comparison to a vibration which was off the scale with my Grandmother. This was my experience and it's as vivid today as it was all those years ago, and I believe that It's because it's a memory, rather than imagined..

    It’s not my intent to insult you so I apologise if I have.
    It's ok cocker. Truth be told, it's been a while since I got to tango with a sceptic and I'm enjoying myself in a weird sort of way.

    My examples are extremely ridiculous, of course, but it’s more tongue in cheek rather than an attempt to insult or degrade so again, my bad for coming across that way.
    I appreciate that, but maybe bear in mind that when people like me talk about our experiences, they are often connected to people we loved, and who loved us. Unicorns, marshmallows etc are a cheap shot and they're always going to rub people up the wrong way.

    So yes, when saying that there is zero scientific evidence of the afterlife or ghosts, I’m not wrong. If there were scientific evidence, you wouldn’t need to “believe” anything, it would already be proven.
    I don't think it would actually. Given that when science comes anywhere near being able to prove something paranormal using the scientific method - sceptics raise the bar, debunk, or ridicule.

    I don’t believe in the afterlife because I have no reason to. There’s no scientific evidence for it.
    What I'm saying is that, if you'd had experiences like mine, it's possible that you would think differently and your experience (and the more profound the better) would override your scientific thinking. You are seriously underestimating the power of experience. Experiences can be the difference in wanting to live or wanting to die - that's how powerful they can be.

    It’s for those same reasons I don’t believe in numerology, astrology or someone being able to see my future by looking into a ball.
    I've never been to see a psychic who gazed into a ball, wore a turban, or who call themselves Gypsy Rose and charge a fortune for the pleasure. If you understand anything about psychics - most work off people's energies and psychometry or they use cards. It doesn't matter what they use - it's just a way of connecting. And before you start on about fakes etc - yes, there are lots of those, and I'd imagine them to be the majority because it's a money maker and it's rife for exploitation. Give me your name and phone number and I can tell you what you already know about yourself. Yes there are some poor gullible sods who fall for this. But there are cowboys in all walks of life. I know all about hot reading and cold reading. I haven't seen a psychic (or a medium) for many years but I was always careful about not giving details of any kind. No bank details, not even my own phone number or real name. In the end, the best piece of mediumship I've ever had came when I walked into a spiritualist church ten miles from my home - and I'd never been there and I didn't know anybody (first time ever in one of these churches) and I'd hoped my dad would show up via the platform medium. He didn't, and I was a bit gutted. Anyway, I bought myself a cuppa and a cake and was standing there when an elderly bloke walked up to me and asked if he could pass a message to me. I said yes, obvs, but nothing else. Over the next ten minutes, this guy (a medium) accurately described my dad - the fact that we look the same only with different coloured eyes (his brown, mine green) - his cancer and how he had to use a walking stick to get about (my dad was 58 when he had cancer) - my first dog (who he'd loved and she loved him) that he (Dad) knew I was struggling (marriage) but all would all be ok in the end. He also asked if I wanted to be a nurse. I said no and laughed. I was a school caretaker and cleaner at the time. He said he saw me working with medicines. That made no sense to me. Finally he asked me to sing some lyrics to my mother - and the song title - he gave me some lyrics which I didn't recognise - and told me to pass it on which I did and my mother said that this was the first song my dad ever played to her and it was a record that got nicked on a train station platform not long after which explains why I couldn't place the record. She said they'd found a copy at a record fair not long before my dad died, only she couldn't bring herself to play it. When she died, we found it hidden under a bed, and there was the song which the medium had told me about. Finally, the school where I was working closed down and I had to get another cleaning job. I went for an interview with a contract cleaning service with no idea where I would be placed - they covered schools, offices, factories, surgeries - everything. I got the job and the supervisor took me to my placement there and then - it was a pharmaceutical warehouse. I later remembered what the medium had said but I figured he was a bit off because my cleaning didn't involve being anywhere near the drugs and medicines. It was offices, bogs and the canteen. But a year later my marriage broke down and I had to find work which paid more money. The manager of the warehouse heard about me handing my notice in with the cleaning company and he offered me a job working for him - picking and packing pharmaceuticals. Everything the medium had told me was accurate and came true. There were no misses and no making things fit. I also said nothing except 'no' to his nurse question. And also, it occurred to me that my dad was a very private man, so it makes sense that he chose to communicate through an older gent instead of in front of an audience. I haven't seen a medium since. I don't need to because I've had the best evidence I could be given, and it was free.

    I know, full well, what you're thinking. That it had to be a trick? Well, all I can say that if it was a trick - it was a bloody good one!

    I see it more as perhaps wanting to believe in something rather than trying to reach the most logical explanation.
    The problem I have with that is that I was 9 years old when I had my first paranormal experience. I had no interest in ghosts whatsoever. I was music obsessed. And it wasn't even this experience which convinced me of the afterlife. It was four years later when I believe my grandmother visited me. Seven years after her death. I wasn't grieving. I know I loved my Granma, and she loved me, but I hardly have any memories of her - only being 6 when she died. So, unlike your 'voices' that sounded like your grandad when you were actively grieving - the same cannot be said of me. I wasn't looking for this experience - it just happened. It's the reason I believe in the afterlife because science cannot adequately explain the most important aspect of it - which is feeling something so intense which is indescribable because the words do not exist that would do it any kind of justice. Since then I've had many more experiences - and everything stopped when I had a mental breakdown - as I've said to Joe.

    Hey, that doesn’t make you gullible or “thick”, it makes you human.
    Unfortunately I've had many experiences with pseudo-sceptics whose sole intention is to ridicule and abuse people like me and one way is by bringing intelligence into question. I'm happy to say that you're not one of them. You've had the decency to apologise for making the comparison of my experience to a marshmallow, and a pseudosceptic wouldn't do that.

    It just makes you normal, I guess.
    Normal? Outrageous claim Sir!!!

    For the same reasons it matters to you that people believe your version of events. It’s not like this debate is a one way street.
    You're wrong here. It doesn't matter if people believe me. I just like talking about it. The paranormal became an interest when I was in my mid-twenties, and I'm autistic, which means I can literally 'talk' forever about my interests lol

    I defend the idea of scepticism because I believe it’s a good life skill. Other than that, I couldn’t really care less if you believe in whatever you want. As I said, I’m pretty sure I’m not changing your mind here.
    It is a good life skill. And maybe you can see how scepticism played a part when I was seeing mediums and psychics? But I also think that there is so much more to this universe than we can comprehend and it requires a somewhat open-mind to explore the possibilities...

    No mate. You haven't changed my mind. Nor has any sceptic before you. Not because I'm closed-minded or that what you or Joe has said isn't interesting or food for thought - it's because my experiences were too profound and transformative to be explained away by mistakes or wishful thinking etc

    I hope this does continue to bring you joy.
    So far that has been the case, and it has been a light in some VERY dark times. We will know who is right one day, so if you are waken up at 3am one morning by a scary lookin' bird in rollers wearing an 'I TOLD YOU SO, COCKER' t- shirt - that'll be me.
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