Are benzos really all that bad

[quaksalver]

Ive found on health forums that folk are generally hostile to benzos even when taking themselves., youre made to feel guilty even

Everyone know that benzos are addictive, poop out after 3 weeks, make you more depressed and affect AD and ate very hard to come off

But unfortunately some of us need to take them when ADs dont work. Given a choice between suicide and benzos its a non brainer.

I have found a way to take at last without them pooping out
This is to take every second day
Not saying this would work for everyone

I admot I am psychologically addicted but have no choice.

[AntsyVee]

I take them on occasion when I know I’m going to be in a highly stressful situation. For example, I’m very claustrophobic, and I take an AD everyday, but if I know I’m going to have to go to a basement somewhere for a long period of time or be in an elevator a lot, I will take one or two before I go.

Unfortunately, like you said, as you take them more often they often stop working until you move to a higher dose, and very high doses can cause breathing or heart rate issues. They’re not really designed for long term use.

Have you tried all the ADs out there? There are various kinds, and you usually have to experiment with dosages before you get what works for you.

[quaksalver]

Hello Antsy Vee

Thank you for your nice reply here and on the covid topic.

I never heard about heart and breathing problems with benzos but have no doubt you are right.

When it comes to AD, in my case it is a question of what ones I havent tried and they are the ones not available here. Its so frustrating going through all yhe nastu startup side effects then geting no therapeutic benefit two months on.

I tried anti psychotic called seroquel but the restless leg side effect drove me berserk.

As for therapy, I gave up a long time ago. I know their damn script so well. I found myself analysing the analysts and making them angry.

The only one thing that does help is meditation. It bores me senseless but I do religiously 3 hours a day every day.

[panic_down_under]

Everyone know that benzos are addictive,

No, they are not. Dependence is not addiction, nor is it unique to benzodiazepines (BZDs). Physical, and sometimes psychological dependence is as much an issue with ADs and some are at least as hard to quit as BZDs, but there is no pearl clutching over them.

BTW-you've been dependent on BZDs all your life. They are a natural component of all foods. Sprouted seeds and potatoes are particularly rich sources of diazepam and its metabolites and also lorazepam. While the quantities we get from food are small, they are not insignificant. Benzodiazepine levels can reach pharmaceutical levels in patients with some liver diseases. So much so that medical intervention is sometimes necessary.

poop out after 3 weeks,

Tolerance to their sedation will often develop within a few weeks so they shouldn't be prescribed for insomnias (neither should the related 'Z' hypnotics, imho), but poop out for anxiety is uncommon, perhaps less than for SSRIs. Most with anxiety don't escalate their benzodiazepine (BZD) dose over time, something admitted even by their severest critics such as C. Heather Ashton, the anti BZD cult's main guru. To quote another of their gurus:

"The typical pattern of a drug dependence syndrome, with drug seeking behaviour, rapid tolerance, and escalation of dosage, is rare (according to Marks's calculations, one in every 5 million patient months "at risk")" Peter J Tyrer, Benzodiazepines on trial

In fact most gradually lower their BZD dose over time.

make you more depressed and affect AD

Yes, they can do both because they inhibit neurogenesis. This is their greatest problem, imho, and the real reason for caution in prescribing them.

But unfortunately some of us need to take them when ADs dont work. Given a choice between suicide and benzos its a non brainer.

Agreed. They are my 'get out of jail' card should old age make taking TCAs and MAOI class ADs too risky as I can't tolerate SSRIs and SNRIs.

That said, I do wonder whether you've explored all the available AD options. IME, GPs these days seem to think the only ADs are the SSRIs/SNRIs and mirtazapine and if none of these work they run out of ideas and reach for antipsychotics even though treatment guidelines recommend they shouldn't be used for the most common anxiety disorders, GAD and PD (also PTSD imho).

I have found a way to take at last without them pooping out
This is to take every second day
Not saying this would work for everyone

Depends on the BZD. This won't make any difference with diazepam and the other long half-life BZDs, but could with alprazolam and maybe lorazepam, though I'd be wary about alprazolam for other reasons. If you can get the antihistamine hydroxyzine which has pretty good anti anxiety properties then switching between it and lorazepam every 2-3 days should ensure limit tolerance onset, though as per above this is not the problem some claim.

[quaksalver]

Wow thanks for such a long reply panic down. It echo's everything I read on Ashton Manual.

Your handle sounds familiar. I had to. rack my pea size brain and realized you are the Australian psychiatrist I read about on other forums! One was anxiety forum your copayriots Ponder and Gypsy Queen were wondering where you had got to.

It makes sense that you migrated to a forum which has a lot of members, your expertize would be wasted on one which only gets a few posts a day.

It is a tremendous asset to a forum like this to contain a qualufief health professional. Patient led forums are great for giving and receiving support but when specific information is needed relating to medications, you usualy just get a persons personal experience.

I am very pleased to have found you here. I wil let your old friends know where to find you, Im sure they will be pleased also.

Im sure other forums have doctors and nurses on board but for whatever reasons they keep their profession a secret.

[panic_down_under]

realized you are the Australian psychiatrist I read about on other forums! One was anxiety forum your copayriots Ponder and Gypsy Queen were wondering where you had got to.

Sorry, not guilty. Not a psychiatrist and I have no idea who Ponder and Gypsy Queen are. My profession was the very antithesis of the healing arts. I used to put the fear of their god into people, whole nations, not eased their anxieties. But I have been hanging around anxiety forums and making them look untidy from the early bulletin board days using a trusty CoCo 2 and 300/75 baud modem so our paths may well have crossed before.

The Ashton cultists are long time foes. I haven't looked in on benzo.org.uk for years, but if they're agreeing with me then I probably need to rethink my position.

It makes sense that you migrated to a forum which has a lot of members

Gotta go where the money is!

[Phill2]

I think it depends on the person.
I've been taking 5mg twice daily for the last 17 years and never felt the need to increase.

[AntsyVee]

Thanks, QS. All of us just try to help here in any way possible. This is a good forum. Yes, Ian is a treasure. Did you have a good holiday, Ian?


I guess I am the rare one on here that increased my benzo doses, but I was being given them as a sleep aide, and it was many, many years ago.

[panic_down_under]

Did you have a good holiday, Ian?

I've had better, Vee. Trust yours was way better and that Santa was feeling particularly generous as he slid down your chimney. I got the usually bag of coal. Hasn't he heard of global warming!

Came to an impasse with the builder so we've parted company. For the king's ransom I'm paying him I expected to have the house I want, not the one he was willing to build. <grumble> And two of my 3 lawnmowers went to the great shearing shed in the sky in the last week of 2020. Not unexpected as they were about 20 yo which is really ancient for sheep. Few merinos live much beyond 10-12 yo.

So all in all a probably predictable end to the rolling disasters that has been 2020. Fingers crossed that the worst will now be increasingly behind us.

I guess I am the rare one on here that increased my benzo doses, but I was being given them as a sleep aide, and it was many, many years ago.

Sedation is produced by a different BZD binding site subunit to the ones which produce the anti anxiety response and it is very prone to tolerance. Which is why BZDs and the 'Z' class hypnotics which also target the same subunit are not good long term sleeping pills. Antihistamines are a far better option.

[AntsyVee]

I've had better, Vee. Trust yours was way better and that Santa was feeling particularly generous as he slid down your chimney. I got the usually bag of coal. Hasn't he heard of global warming!

Came to an impasse with the builder so we've parted company. For the king's ransom I'm paying him I expected to have the house I want, not the one he was willing to build. <grumble> And two of my 3 lawnmowers went to the great shearing shed in the sky in the last week of 2020. Not unexpected as they were about 20 yo which is really ancient for sheep. Few merinos live much beyond 10-12 yo.

So all in all a probably predictable end to the rolling disasters that has been 2020. Fingers crossed that the worst will now be increasingly behind us.



Sedation is produced by a different BZD binding site subunit to the ones which produce the anti anxiety response and it is very prone to tolerance. Which is why BZDs and the 'Z' class hypnotics which also target the same subunit are not good long term sleeping pills. Antihistamines are a far better option.

Eh, it was a really weird Chanukah and Xmas this year due to Covid, but I'm not going to complain. I'm alive; I've got a job and food on the table; a room over my head and my family is safe. That's more than a lot of others have this year.

Is there some kind of BBB in Tasmania? Report that builder's ass and sue him if you can. I'm sorry that didn't work out for you, but I'm glad to hear that you're well.