The experiment

[PUGLETMUM]

joannap my lovely yes cbt does work, and no im not 'cured' if i was to go into what i go through id be here all day,and im sure nobody wants to be that bored!!! but its only the same as what everyone else goes through,none of us really are any different.

this is what my therapist told me about change (how your feeling now,scared about becoming a new you?), 'its like walking in a long corn field everyday over the same path, you wear it down in one place? okay then one day you say i want to take a different route today so you start in a different place in that corn field,but it isnt worn down there so now it feels 'different and new' and that feels uncomfortable for a while,but over time that new route will become familiar too,but better joannap!!!!

please please believe me we all despair at our feeling of panic/anxiety/depression/confusion to the point of hair pulling and teeth gnashing,but if you know what to say to yourself it is only a matter of time before it passes, and one tip for anyone out there really struggling with it all through the day is STOP demanding that it goes, because you are only adding stress to your already overloaded nervous system!!! if you accept it, and say okay well i feel bad, both physically and mentally, but im just gonna carry on anyway,then the anxiety goes down over time. the opposite is also true - if you are constantly monitoring yourself for a drop in anxiety then you are actually adding to your anxiety!!!!

here is an example of a success ive had due to cbt - i had to spend 1 night in hospital (ihave never had to go to hospital in all my life let alone since ive been agoro! i even only spent 1 night in when i had my daughter)anyway i took loads of antibiotics and felt very rough for a week, then i strted to get pms and my sleepwent rubbish,lots of waking and dreaming,and wakinfg up with lots and lots of anxiety,anyway i didnt panic,i just kept being positive and even the measures i took, like spending ages on the phone to my mother-in-law to help me cope,i didnt beat myself up about, well its lifted i had to wait a month to seemy therapist,and when i did she said 'oh emma youve made so much improvement and your okay again now, because cognitively youve not over-reacted to the depression feelings, with statements like 'oh this is sooooo awful!!!' so i said okay ill come one last time and then well leave it open for if i ever need her again,which even if i do i wont be able to afford!and imthinking of cancelling the next one coz i need the £75,so thats a result!! and i think if everyone could see someone like her theyd get better.she was a supportive therapist,she liked me,she supported me but she never gave into my whingeing and moaning!!!!

tc emma

[joannap]

hi emma

good point. i have been on citalopram only 2.5 weeks but every day i am monitoring how i feel etc so i will try and just go with it! are you still on any meds? and i would not be bored to hear what you go through but only if you want to say!

that's exactly what i am scared of - being a new me but then i tell myself i don;t have to change all of me - just the bits that cause me pain. the fact that i am scared of being a new me tells me i am ready to change! thanks so much emma - you have been a godsend!

[PUGLETMUM]

shucks joannap, thats very kind of you to say. no i dont take meds and havent done since i came off them when pregnant 10 years ago.(well i did try but they didnt work,so i took that as a sign to mean i had to get to the bottom of this, unfortunately it has taken nearly all of those years!), so i unravelled why i felt so bad,and all it was,was that i first experienced panic at 14 and had 6 months off school and from then on i became my own worst enemy, then i looked after my mum who had cancer from age 18-20 pretty much alone, while my sisters got on with their lives (dont get me wrong, they were involved but now looking backthey should have helped more!).

after that it all went pearshaped really,and i was on prozac when i got pregnant(anothe rreason why i dont like the meds coz it gave me a feeling of coping when really id learnt no coping skills, oh except staying in bed alotand not working!) by somebody id known for 16 weeks(great move?). that has been really hard coz weve had to get to know each other,and be parents and deal with my 'issues'.

the thing that was constant almost since 14 was negative thinking,i was at my best when my mum was ill and i coped better thatn anyone coz of how much i felt for her - it wasnt a burden,i wanted to look affter her. so after she died and i was pretty much alone,family wise i got even worse, it was like well im alone so something must be wrong with me! and that in turn makes you an uncomfortable person to be around, so its just a vicious circle, until you learn all this stuff and start putting yourself back together again. low self-esteem doesnt just come about through abuse, it also happens because of a lack of positive in your life, we all need to feel loved and wanted.

anyway what i go through is only the same as what you go through, but its only by changing yur relationship with it that you get better, alot of people wont take kindly to being told by a therapist that its not that bad, but it works for me, i actually think im very lucky -ive never been ill and neither has my daughter,my husband is well,my dogs are well we have a house and food so what do we have to be unhappy about? NOTHING, and this is how i get better by going back to the time my mum was ill and saying' well i dealt with it, and ive found love again, and there are people homeless or starving, or people fighting cancer who are really really sick,and then i dont feel guilty i just feel able to get it into perspective. we ARE feeling ill but we are not ILL.
that is another thinking error i remembered while i was out, its called EMOTIONAL REASONING- i feel something so therefore it must be true - RUBBISH!!!!!! you feel something so therefore yur emotions cloud your judgement. just because you think you are ill doesnt mean you are ill either mentally or physically, and that is proven by the fact tha tpeoplewith no medication get better from anxiety,and why people who continue to have tests for physical illness continue to find nothing wrong!

againi hope this helps you in some way? tc, emma

[Bill]

Thank you for your support Emma I've never actually been through a therapy course but I think it's terrible that you should have had to pay so much especially when often sufferers can't work because they feel too ill but I know how poorly funded the NHS has been which has also been terribly wrong!

I think though, Emma, as a result you know more indepth than me and so I must admit I do find your posts interesting reading. Everything that I know I've had to pick up and learn for myself by reading and putting into practise. Self help I guess but I know I don't know everything.

Anyway, Joan, Please don't worry about being defensive We all have our sensitivities especially when we hit a nerve. All that matters to me is to offer what I know in the hope that something I say will help someone. I'm not always right and I quite understand why people react as they do so there's no need to apologise as I don't take offence. I just want to help. The most important thing is that you have been able to share with Emma as a result and I feel sure she's helped you. Helping you to feel better in whatever way is All that Really matters.

[Krakers]

Hello Krakers and Joan,

I'm very sorry it came across in that way because it wasn't my intention to dismiss or make people feel guilty. As you say, it's like route we take- feeling ill- seeing the doctor- prescribed ad's- then either staying on them which does help some people or later ....

Sometimes I think I word things in the wrong way and not how I intend them to come across. I apologise for that.

Bill I come accross the wrong way all the time, don't sweat it pal. I've already had to aplogoise twice tonight because my body was saying something other than my mouth / tone.

When it comes to minds trhey're complexed things. They do their best to keep us in balance, but if you don't feed it the right things then they do their best, but its not always able to keep us level.

I agree that with what you have said. Had they actually seen me for CBT 9 months ago then I might not be here. Same for bereavement (sp?) counselling - currrent wait list 9 months - just too long in my borough.

So here I am refered for a residential detox, and even with bright yellow stickers all over my file 12 days later I have heard nought.

Thing is I believe I will be better. This goes back to exactly what you were saying about the brain. The power of belief can overcome many things my mind likes to invent. I use self talk to remind my brain of it frequently, and for me it works.

Don't be worried about putting your foot in your mouth, otherwise I'd have run out of feet on my third post. All we can do is relate our experiences.

Best wishes ........ Krakers.

[PUGLETMUM]

hi guys,okay i was thinking about all of this again last night and i wanted to share this with you, i did have 2 years of therapy a year after i had my daughter and the guy was lovely. now i thought i was receiving cbt but i later found out(this year from my therapist who was the head of mental health!) that he was a psychology lecturer(well he told me this anyway so i knew that) and he was training to do cbt! that was 8years ago.

anyway so we mainly did person centred counselling i think(which ive had before also) and he was very nice and supportive to me because i was actually in a real state at that time, i still didnt have the information i needed.

however, now when i go back over that time i really dont think it would have made a jot of difference to me if we had done cbt - i dont htink it would have gone in,and i dont think my mind was clear enough of mixed up emotions about my family,my mums deathand the fact that id had a baby with a stranger!!!

what im trying to say long windedly is that i think you come to recovery WHEN you come to it!!! i think its a journey and you cant rush each step, you have to go through the steps to get to where you want to be. i think you just have to have faith and hope that recovery will come when your ready for it and not before,you cant force it.

thats what i feel, otherwise why would i have spent 8 years sliding into despair due to agoraphobia, which in my mind is due to emotions- for me it was self loathing(why i loathed myself now seems ridiculous to me as i havent done anything wrong!) to now be feeling capable of tackling that agoraphobia - last night i went to morrisons at 6.30(havent been before 7.30, in the past) okay i was with my daughter, but like my husband said'youve spent 9 years not wanting to be with her, so dont see tha ta s a negative!' -it was busy!!!! not packed but busy, and i had to q through traffic there and back!! we got a trolley and i didnt rush round,and i did feel off at one point worying about who i may see and whether id have to q to pay. soi had a lovely, sucessful shopping trip, and i felt sooooo happy after we'e eaten and settled down, so ther eis hope for everyone,but i think youve got to be at the right place first, but i do believe that while your beating yourself up constantly you will never ever make progress, i think that is the agoraphobics first duty to themselves - to learn self-love and i think you will see results soon after, if you love yourself you want to do these things that are painful, it feels different, you dont feel like a slug that shouldnt even be in public, you start to hold your head high and say' yes i can do this!'

emma

[joannap]

hi emma

i know what you mean about your therapist saying its not that bad - i once ended up at the local doctors on holiday - was convinced they were going to admit me to hospital because my panic/anxiety felt that bad and the doctor said - you are not as bad as YOU think you are!

my story is that i was born prematurely and was in hospital a month (they didn;t believe in cuddling babies etc 33yrs ago) so i had no love as such in that time. my mum had a terrible birth and although she had my dad - she had no outside support or family. she had untreated post natal depression and admits that although she looked after me - she was on another planet! she then had my brother 2 years after me and had to go into hospital for bed rest for 6 weeks - apparently i was a changed child when she came out and this i am sure was due to separation anxiety. my mum also suffered anxiety issues herself when she was a teenager. her mum died of cancer when she was 13 and her dad provided her with a roof over her head but basically left her to fend for herself.

my parents divorced when i was 8 and although my family has always been there for me - no one realised the emotional trauma i suffered from 8-16. i remember worrying (irrationally) that my dad would not love me or want to see me again. my parents went through acrimonious times over custody/maintenance issues etc and it was terribly upsetting and i basically lived in a general nervous state. i went to live with my mum and her new man - leaving the village, school etc that i loved (plus i was a real daddy's girl). we were very poor at this time and lived in a cottage that ended up being condemmed. mum had to start again from scratch (she also had another baby with my stepdad) and we lived on a series of awful council estates (nothing wrong with council houses) where we experienced awful neighbours, abuse etc until my mum could afford to buy her own home. my dad remarried too and took on my step mums children. i remember feeling v lost and v much in the middle - that my mums home belonged to my step dad (who also suffered with anger/depression issues) and that my dad;s home belonged to my step mum.

at 17 i had a relationship with a much older man which unsurprisingly did not work out. i then fell in love - again - with someone older and moved in with them after only a few weeks. my family could not stand him - i lived with him for 4 years but now realise that low self esteem/lack of assertiveness etc meant i dare not be the real me - i played a part so to speak. i also lived in fear of his ex - she threatened us with violence and even had my boyfriend arrested at one time. i had also just left college and so was out in the real world all at once and took a series of well paid but hated jobs that were just not me. i then started with really bad tonsilitis and after 3 years of being plain unhappy and stressed out - i had my first kind of breakdown.

i felt better after a'd's but did not address the issues that had let up to it (i was in denial!) but the following year we split up and i had to leave his house with basically nothing even though i had paid 1/2 towards the mortgage payments all the time i lived there etc. a v stressful time followed where i moved between my mum's and shared accomodation, lost my job and basically felt at rock bottom. at this time i applied for a loan from the princes trust and set up my own clothes shop.

i then met the man who is now my husband! he too was going through problems of his own - he had a property with his ex that she was refusing to let him sell and so he lived with his mum whilst his house stood empty! she eventually let him buy her out and we moved in - my husband insisted on selling it straight away and we found a new home but the mortgage fell through the day we were moving (lenders fault not ours) and so we had a nail biting few weeks - living back at home and terrified we would loose our new home. luckily - it was sorted out and we still live here. the shop was not making any money and so i took a job at the local charity shop which i loved.

in that four years i had my tonsils out after living with constant tonsilitis for months on end which really dragged my health down. i also suffered terrible constant headaches and pelvic pain - both of which had to be investigated. a very bad time at the shop with some really nasty volunteers saw me leaving and becoming self employed. my nephew & the son of a close friend committed suicide and my aunt died suddenly of cancer.

although i have been on a'd's for the past 4 years - i believe my latest breakdown was a combination of worrying endlessly about my grandma who i helped look after at her home - she has a brain tumour but would not go into care or make any decisions about her future and i got over involved and sorted literally everything out for from shopping/bills/appointments. i have seen her in some terrible states where i thought she would not live the night - she has been in and out of hospital and at one point i was getting daily phone calls from her carers when she lived at home because she was so bad (she is now in a home), worrying about finances, our dog having pups in the last few months, starting a new business venture, having to rehome my parrots as well as the general stress i pile on myself through not making time to relax etc. i also came off my a'd's as i thought they were not doing anything for me anymore! all this has mainly happened within the last 5 months and i just think my body/brain had had enough!

ANYWAY - i don;t want you to think its been all doom and gloom - i have had some very happy times, i have a lovely family, a supportive husband, 3 lovely dogs and have done my best to live a full a life as possible. i look back now and realise that i too have not learnt coping stratedgies to deal with the stress in my life and because of low self esteem - have piled more stress on top of myself! and i feel that all this gets fuelled into panic and anxiety. i am now learning to deal with the real stress in my life before it gets that far. i have just started to take citalopram and am having cbt in a few months and have realised just by writing all the above that if i can cope with what life had thrown at me - i can cope for another 33 years!

sorry its such a long post but i feel so much better for writing that down and today is a new start! jo xx

[Nel]

i dont think meds for this condition will be your life long way of dealing with it.

i was once helped so miraculously by prozac that i actually thought they had saved my life!!!! what a ridiculous way to think!!! giving a tablet that amount of power is very dangerous, because very few people actually need anti-depressants,remember why they are prescribed in the first place? because the government cant afford to offer everyone with anxiety the 20 sessions of cbt they would need. this has cost me £75 a session privately,and there is no way the government are going to pay for that for up to 5 million people with anxiety to some degree or another!!!

there is an underlying reason for why you are suffering continuing anxiety, even if that reason is just the fact that you dont like the way you feel and want it to go -it doesnt have to be rooted in your childhood! you can have a perfectly normal happy childhood and still sufer from anxiety, i know people who had rough childhoods and arent in the slightest bit anxious! it doesnt work like that!!! a trauma can start it, stress can start it, lack of love can start it anything can start it!!!! its what you do with it once you know youve got it that matters.and this is where cbt comes in,by changing the way you think you can change the way you feel -

how many people are familiar with the thinking errors that lead to anxiety/depression?

one such thinking error that goes on on here on a regular basis is 'personalization' this is where we either overblow our importance in a situation eg i say something and then when somebody else mentions it innocently we think they are talking directly to us, peoplemake innocent comments on here and they are pounced on by the person taking it as s persoanl attack on them!!! the person who made the comment probably never even thought of the person who is taking it personally!!!

anyway there are loads of others and when you accept that you are doing them you can see how you have the power in yourself to actually improve your state of mind and so therefore improve you life without having to resort to meds when you dont need them. not many people on here are syuffering from clinical depression but they are taking meds for clinical depression because that is cheaper than you going to a therapist and finding out all the ways you can make yourself better.

Brilliant post, spot on

[Bill]

Hi all,

Joan, I can see you've been through it but it's really good that you can identify the reasons behind your problems. Insightful. I think it's helped you to understand yourself and how to move forward. You're doing good and things sound promising for you.

Emma's right in saying that things can't be turned around over night. It was back in 1995 when things really got bad for me and it took me a long while to sort my issues. It doesn't always take That long though and as Emma says, we have to work at it at our own pace when we feel able. Medication is often part of that route back. It should just play it's part like a temporary support or stepping stone while the main underlying causes are treated. I'm very hopeful Joan that things will work out well for you.

Krakers, I agree with you that self belief and self talk are very important. They create a base to work up from.

Written words can easily be misinterpreted. I'd never mean to offend anyone or say anything insensitive so I'll always apologise if it comes out wrong!