Psychological and physical

[Raindrop]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, as it covers a bit...

Anyhoo, was thinking about the connections between the horrible physical symptoms (and related health-obsessive behaviour) and the psychological underlying reasons of anxiety. For example, talking to my counsellor, she believes themes of loss, failure and lack of control (relating to specific life events) have particularly caused my anxiety and panic attacks. However, I can't see how working through these psychological problems will particularly help the way I overly obsess about my health. It's the worry over each symptom of anxiety that I get that causes my current psychological problems, where I feel dread all the time and am frightened for no reason. I can't see that knowing and discovering why they happen (as in past events, not current behaviour) will necessarily stop me worrying about the physical symptoms of anxiety. I'm really not trying to appear despairing or hopeless here, or begging for advice, but I would be really interested (and probably aided) by people's opinions on this.

How can anxiety that is so related to your health, be solved or helped by dealing with very obscure psychological reasons?

Have people identified specific psychological reasons for their anxiety, and has this helped?

Is something more "targeted" towards anxiety (such as CBT) more helpful?

And finally... do people think about why it is them that is suffering with this horrible condition? As in, where did I go wrong?!

[seh1980]

hello Raindrop,

All cases are different. For me, it did help tackling a psychological problem as that is what caused my panic attacks in the first place. If you learn how to deal with these problems, the physical symptoms will soon start to fade. I saw a counsellor to talk about my 'issue' and it really helped me. I am now on a waiting list for CBT as I think that would help me too. It's different for everyone..

Sarah

[jude]

Hi raindrop,

Speaking only of my personal experience, please dont assume its the same for everyone:

I already knew what caused my anxiety and panic before I got the symptoms. I had a premature, very sick baby 5 years ago and the doctors warned me 3 days after she was born that I would probably get this illness. They told my husband and I that our marriage probably wouldnt last through the strain.
Over the last 2 years the anxiety has been getting worse and I could see it coming.
The last straw occured when last Autumn, my hubby and I nearly split. Then the panic hit hard and I realised it had arrived.
So to answer your question, if you know what has caused it (as i do),or find out what has caused it, how can it cure you.
Maybe an understanding of the cause will calm you down. I think you need to give it time and try different methods. Talking and getting things off your chest can do the power of good.
Take care
Jude x

[bean]

Hi,
I dont know whether or not this will help you in any way,but I have been suffering with anxiety for neally 6 years now.When I had my first bad attack,I tried to find out what it was that had triggered it off-I went back weeks,then months,and I just couldnt work out where this fear had come from.
As far as i was concernrd,it just came out of the blue,for no apparent reason.I then started to get superstitious,believing that I had done something bad to deserve this.It wasnt until,almost 4 years later that my doc referred me to a place called the 'Laurels' where I recieved CBT.It was the best move that my doc or I had made in 4 years!
I began to understand that my anxiety didnt just hit me at 17-The CBT made me realise that from an early age I suffered panic and anxiety-for example-the pounding heart and dry mouth I would get every morning b4 school [from age 5-15].
Anyway,without boring you with my life story,I will get to the point!
I used to over obcess about my health and panic symptoms.I would always be checking my pulse,clearing my throat,I was so concerned about my breathing that if I ever left the house I would take a bag that contained vics vapo-rub,vics sinex,throat lozenges[I thought these would stop my throat closing over-I ate so many that they gave me the runs!]
These were all 'safety behaviours' that I have picked up over the years,not just since the 'bad panic' hit me at 17.
I would panic about my breathing.I would get these stabbing pains in my chest-this was due to me taking fast,shallow breaths,this puts alot of strain on the upper chest muscles,causing the stabbing chest pains.I would then think I was having a heart attack cause of these pains,then the palpatations would kick in.I'd get pins and needles in my hands and lips[I was actually taking in too much oxygen-hypa-ventilating].This would just confirm my negative thoughts about having a heart attack.
It became a viscious cycle.I learnt through CBT,to take the negative thoughts[that have been growing in my mind for years] out of the equasion.This will break the 'cycle of fear'.I found that once the psycological problems have been dealt with,the phsical ones either wernt there anymore,or they were not so apparent to me.
Sorry for going on so much! I hope this will help you in some way.Good luck! Bean

[linjane]

Hi Raindrop,
I have just replied to a posting about post natal depression and anxiety and rather than repeat what I have just written, please read that as well as the rest of my posting.

I often wonder what I have done so bad to have gone through what I have gone through but I think it is just life. Until yesterday, when the penny finally dropped, I wondered why bother to talk about all your life events, because surely they can't be causing you your symptons, but I am beginning to realise that they very probably do. Talking to my pyscotherapist is different to talking to a friend, because they ask you different questions. I hope this helps and you can try too.

Take care,
Linda

<b id="quote">quote:</b id="quote"><table border="0" id="quote"><tr id="quote"><td class="quote" id="quote">hello Raindrop,

All cases are different. For me, it did help tackling a psychological problem as that is what caused my panic attacks in the first place. If you learn how to deal with these problems, the physical symptoms will soon start to fade. I saw a counsellor to talk about my 'issue' and it really helped me. I am now on a waiting list for CBT as I think that would help me too. It's different for everyone..

Sarah

<div align="right">Originally posted by seh1980 - 09 February 2005 : 10:35:39</div id="right">
</td id="quote"></tr id="quote"></table id="quote">

[nikk]

Hi Raindrop - I was interested in your point. I am lucky enough to see a clinical psychologist, and we generally do a mix of CBT and counselling. CBT has been proven time after time to be the best form of treatment for anxiety, depression and many other disorders like anorexia - it mainly deals with the here and now - so tackles the symptoms of anxiety head on. In general there has been a shift within clinical psychiatry/psychology away from freudian based psychoanlaysis and therapy - as it hasn't been as successful as the cognitive approach. It's agreed in general that dredging up past events isnt helpful to everyone - and it's the symptoms that the patient is feeling presently that are important.

That said most anxiety suffers are so bewildered by there symptoms - that finding a cause is useful - so looking back into the past can good for this, and resolving passed issues. As it removes that feeling of utter bewildermemt, and the impression that it just came from the blue.

For me it was good to understand what probably caused my anxiety, because you can then realise that what most bothers you is being scared of being scared - and CBT helps with this.

You also mention that you feel scared/anxious for no reason - i used to think this also. But you have to really notice your thoughts - when you start to feel anxious try and write down what you were thinking at the time - it will probably be an anxious thought. These come so quickly and can be so fleeting we dont even register them - so we think we are anxious for no reason - but really there is a cause. Once you identify these thoughts you can start to challenge them - which is the crux of CBT. For most people - with anxiety - its a fear - or awareness that thay may be, or are, or are going to be anxious, this can be really ingrained, almost subconciosuly- that it can be hard work to change, But you can change this.

Sounds like - you could probably do with some CBT to help with your health worries. Have you looked into trying some of the CBT books out there? i found "Mind Over Mood: Cognitive Treatment Therapy Manual for Clients by Christine Padesky, Dennis Greenberger" to be really good.
And also a book called "Stop Obsessing!: How to Overcome Your Obsessions and Compulsions by Edna B. Foa, Reid Wilson - to be excellent for overcoming worrying and obssessions. It's generally aimed at OCD suffers but works great for just general worriers too - especially chapter five. I found you can make great progress with these books on your own.

Okey dokey - sorry to have blathered on, but it's a subject i'm quite intersted in.

Cheers

Nick

[Meg]

**'she believes themes of loss, failure and lack of control' **

so to carry on from Nikks excellent post - if you have a sense of loss, failure and lack of control - what does this instigate in your mind ??? negative and spiralling thoughts. These are initially to do with he loss or original issue but as tie passes this may pas sbut your ability to think irrationaly and negatively about other things does not go as fast as it is now a habit and by thinking and worrying about it you are managing to keep it all current in your mind.

**How can anxiety that is so related to your health, be solved or helped by dealing with very obscure psychological reasons? **
The ones you mention are not obscure - they are real emotional issues and with emotions come feelings , thoughts , sensations . If you are still harbouring bitterness, grief etc then the feelings will come out in symptoms at some point. This is why it is worth just reviewing if their is anything left that can be worked through. If it is found that their is nothing to work on then its likely you are ' simply' in a fear of the fear cycle which often results in health anxiety when initial triggers have passed and yiur anxiety symptoms have changed from what they used to be. These can be dealt with most effectively with CBT.

For people who are trigger based - its worth understanding the process of anxiety so you recognise it each time and herefore learn not to let the sensations and feelings trick you into thinking you're having a heart attack, going mad etc


Meg
www.anxietymanagementltd.com

You cannot conquer fear until you have learned what it is you're afraid of. The enemy is ignorance. Vivian Vance

[clickaway]

I'm sure that my current condition, at 51, is rooted in what happenedwhen I was 5.
My mum was in hospital for 6 weeks and I had to stay with my aunt 15 miles away. I'm not sure if my Dad visited me or not, but if so it wasn't much. I remember rejecting my mum as I returned home.
A few months later I started school and would not remain in the classroom with the rest and stayed in the school at first. A couple of years later I was separated from my mum on the Underground - fortunately we were reunited after about 40 minutes.
Then at 11, I began to have epilepsy - I know this damaged me psychologically as I began to feel like an outcast. I began to be very isolated from people - I wanted to have friends but somehow with all my hang ups I could not get to grips with that and have a normal life.

This lasted for years and only felt I could deal with it all once in my 30's.

For me, a build of worry and frustration, based on low self esteem and insecurity has made me like this.

The funny thing is I tackled many of my woes soon after my first minor panic and tension attacks, but my anxiety has steadily increased over the 10 years.

Could it be that I have become vulnerable and am less able to handle other, more normal worries?

Ray

[mico]

Hi Raindrop

It's definately an interesting question, although you'll probably not get any sensible answers from me I'll offer a few opinions.

Much of the time when I've thought about this 'freudian' approach, I've had very similar views to you. In fact, I think the majority of people hold the same views. I can completely understand why it is hard to believe that these past events can still affect you in such diverse ways, like you say, you find it hard to relate this to obsessing over health problems. What is the connection? In my opinion, the connection might be very vague, but powerful all the same.

Anxiety, in your case, may not necesarilly be the fear of health problems. It is usually the other way round, The anxiety causes the fear of health. In your case the fear of health problems may be fueling the fire now, but the initial cause of the anxiety may be completely different. You can ask many people on these boards about symptoms, and many will tell you that their symptoms have changed (in some cases, dramatically) over the years (I know mine have). Without anxiety, these fears wouldn't exist, but the specific symptoms are only whatever your anxiety has found to cling on to, not nesecarilly what created it in the first place. Whatever created it could've been something completely different.

Going back to the 'freudian' waffle; people go through a lot in their lifetimes, experience after experience, some good, and some bad. Somewhere down the line, you will of had bad experiences, everyone has, but the important thing is, is that these are powerful experiences that shape who we are today. I used to brush this off a lot, but it stands to reason that we have a lot of built up emotion from some of these experiences. For example, if someone was bullied at school, then that may bring back a lot of emotion when they enter into certain situations. In which case, those emotions are still largely there, maybe just sitting dormant, but anyday the bubble could just pop, and there you go...anxiety. And if this is the case, it also stands to reason that this approach to therapy could prove useful.

However, I'm in agreement with Nikk on this one, and I believe therapies that act on the present moment (such as CBT) are much more useful. The reason I say that, is because I think a lot, I can (and do)think day and night (even in my sleep probably!). Much of this thinking is about thinking, basically, I often wonder why my mind ticks over in the way that it does, trying to make sense of it all. The fact is, is that I never do make sense of it all. Uncovering repressed emotions is all good and well in theory, but I believe (unless there is something very noticable there) that we just arn't capable of going that far in practice. Scientists the world over are still debating on what the brain actually does, how it works, why it does these things, etc. It remains that the human mind is one of the most complicated things you can ever work on, and uncovering repressed emotions is still largely out of our reach (with a few exceptions).

I believe it can be done, and I believe it can be useful. I just believe that in many cases it may well be more trouble than it's worth, and in the end may not get you anywhere due to the complexity of the whole (and little understood) process. I believe that the trend is moving away from this approach, not becuase it doesn't work, but because people know that there is very little chance of perfecting it in the near future, and still only a small chance of perfecting it in the distant future. It would be counterproductive to keep working on such a thing when newer approachs are becoming more and more effective and much less complex. Although, if there are specific factors that you know about, it may be useful to work on them. Otherwise stick to CBT or something and work on what's happening to you right now

Wow, I really did waffle on there didn't I. I apologise for anyone reading this [B)]

mico

[Raindrop]

Wow, thanks for your replies. Detailed, interesting and helpful! I think that there is an agreement that anxiety *is* caused by these underlying psychological reasons and dealing with them, will help the symptoms. I gave this some more thought and decided that when problems aren't dealt with or are repressed/denied, the problem will spring up somewhere else - ie. through anxiety.