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Thread: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

  1. #21
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by spectrum123 View Post
    Previous governments, both red and blue have kicked this can down the road, as they thought (mistakenly I believe) that the public is scared of the word nuclear, and it wasn't a green energy.
    You're dead right, the very word 'nuclear' has been stigmatised, cursed and carried scary/negative connotations ever since time immemorial.

    Said word doesn't just stand for certain types of weaponry/warfare. How about its use in other (non-military/defence) contexts, e.g, nuclear family?

  2. #22
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by Lencoboy View Post
    You're dead right, the very word 'nuclear' has been stigmatised, cursed and carried scary/negative connotations ever since time immemorial.

    Said word doesn't just stand for certain types of weaponry/warfare. How about its use in other (non-military/defence) contexts, e.g, nuclear family?
    On nuclear power, just one word - Chernobyl. If something does go wrong, boy does it go wrong. I'm aware that its a lot safer now than in 1986, but still.

    How about good old fashioned coal? Never mind Scandinavia and its acid lakes, as long as we're ok. Lots of jobs for the unemployed too down those pits. Its a win win
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  3. #23
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    The French have managed for decades relying on nuclear power. The Russians don't appear to have an equivalent word for safety protocols.

  4. #24
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain View Post
    A fair rebuttal, Terry, so I’ll leave The Red Flag flying at half-mast for now and save you from any more naïf Pain.

    But… the problem remains: How does Britain secure the energy requirements of we the people without us being held to ransom by very big businesses solely concerned with achieving an ever-increasing profit? This isn’t about cheap energy; it’s about the reliable supply of essential energy at consistent, realistically affordable prices benefitting everyone.

    Just one other thought: How many companies have to fail and have their customers absorbed into a National Supplier of Last Resort before that becomes a de facto nationalisation of the energy supply trade?
    I think you asked a fair question. Privatisation failed because, whether the industry want to admit it or not, it was close to a cartel. Prices went up by similiar amounts and by similiar values earlier on.

    The regulators (no Billy The Kid though) tried to force competition by an early rule that prevented the old regional supplier from offering rates as low as other ex boards touting for new business outside of their old regions. What happened? Companies like Npower (formerly MEB), as suppliers only (The supply businesses split from what became distribution, metering services and data collection/readers) retaliated by offering rates to undercut but also got wise to buying out other smaller ex boards as a short cut. Npower were owned by US firm Innergy so purchased ex Yorkshire Electric, ex Northern Electric and some gas too.

    The industry got smaller. So regulation try to get new companies into the market. They failed and got bought out big the big fish. Independent Energy was one example.

    This time around the smaller firms have faired much better. This isn't the first time the industry has imploded and smaller firms are now scaring the big fish. Companies like Octopus, for instance. But working for small firms always means a risk to an employee. Customers are covered by the last resort rule but they can end up on naff rates and need to switch again. They get plenty of notice though allowing them out of any binding contracts pre last resort switch.

    The distribution side was even more of a failure. How could any small firm take on big companies with all that plant? Regulation chose to create a subcontracting method whereby a developer could choose a new small distribution agent, with no previous region who operated anywhere, but paid the local distributor. You can guess how little that took off.

    And throughout all this companies opened themselves to investment. The minute they did that, or went plc, they went global. From there the usual sharks would circle and politics would raise it's head. Npower had become US owned and then a German waste company had bought them out.

    Your question, I think, raises more than what many think of over nationalisation. Pricing, leaking profit outside our shores and control are what people mainly consider. But I think your question also considers security. Some countries like to use investment as a political tool and in recent times we can see how France likes to use this to make threats. China get moaned about but closer countries are a threat to our power needs and act in a 'quasi' Putin manner.

    Taking power back makes a lot of sense for our security. Continued cheaper power makes sense too. It seems really tempting. But can't we do more to control the costs? The price cap helps do this and suppliers hate it. Maybe nationalisation is the only way? But the Corbyns of the world are as clueless as the BoJos giving very simplified forecasts of something so huge. I've spent years in migration, processes, industry issues, etc and 10 years on from starting my career in this industry we were years off getting to where we should have been years before. Then comes smart and it starts again. Rather than get everything clean the industry bring in something again that just compounds things. 1998 what a joke, 10 years on still cleaning that mess up.

    From my perspective this is what concerns me. Corbyn could buy it out tomorrow but the money needed to resolve so many problems in the data behind the scenes would come with it. I can see now how staff would be made redundant and some new public supplier starts recruiting anyone rather than use common sense and recruit existing people. Sure, they will milk the pot with consultants.

    I do wonder just how cheap it would be when the public sector has a habit of being a money pit? Will it all cost more than private? Higher staff salaries are great for staff but for your taxes? Just migrating all those supply points and customers will cost how many million? No doubt new billing systems need purchasing. Some suppliers in recent years spent over £200m doing that.

    I've yet to see something which costs all this and provides a break even date somewhere in the future. I doubt politicians understand any of this and it's just the cost of buying companies out to them. What will we be charged? No idea, just 'affordable' touted by politicians.

    Yes, I think you are right about a public supplier of last resort. I fully expect every supplier to oppose it as it raises the spectre of undercutting via taxes. It also does nothing to resolve rising wholesale gas prices as anything charged just gets absorbed by our taxes off the radar whilst the smaller companies just disappear then we are back to the quiet cartel.
    Last edited by MyNameIsTerry; 23-09-21 at 07:16.
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  5. #25
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by fishman65 View Post
    On nuclear power, just one word - Chernobyl. If something does go wrong, boy does it go wrong. I'm aware that its a lot safer now than in 1986, but still.

    How about good old fashioned coal? Never mind Scandinavia and its acid lakes, as long as we're ok. Lots of jobs for the unemployed too down those pits. Its a win win
    Aren't we reopening our coal mines? New opportunities for the young

    We worry about nuclear but have nasty things in test tubes. The last 18 months may change how we think about the big bangs rather than that one person being piggybacked out of a lab (if that indeed happened...[dons tinfoil hat])
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  6. #26
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain View Post
    Without energy security a nation is extremely vulnerable, hence the almost unassailable status coal miners once had. Coal supplied virtually all our domestic and industrial energy pre-nuclear and pre-natural gas. There are vast amounts of coal under our feet, but it’s unlikely any government would put itself in a position of attracting world condemnation by trying to use it; the hypocrisy of telling other countries to cease coal-burning while we carried on. But really we’ve painted ourselves into an energy-deficient corner by taking the stance of having to set an example to the world on renewable energy and eschewing everything that isn’t (and Miss Thunberg doesn't appreciate it anyway).

    Disregarding the possible fusion reactors and hydrogen power of the future, nuclear energy seems to be the only medium-term option. There’s some influential thinking that small, super-efficient nuclear reactors – like those used in submarines – could be developed and implemented widely and quickly. But there’s that N-word word again, with all its connotations.

    Notwithstanding the above, isn’t the energy business actually against anything that would provide less volatility and contribute long-term stability in the market? After all, it’s difficult to justify raising prices and profit when essential demand is being seen to be comfortably met.

    Anyone for fracking?
    I think with the culture wars the way they are today and society so polarised over almost everything, whatever was done or suggested would be met with mass derision, even if whatever done or suggested was with the best of intentions and could have worked in practice.

    Thing is, nearly everyone thinks they're an expert on nearly everything these days and seem to have an attitude of 'stuff the real/actual experts, I know best'!

  7. #27
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Strangely, regarding this impending energy crisis that's dominating the news headlines right now, there hasn't so far been any talk of a full-on economic recession or even 'Global Financial Crisis II' as a result of it, unless I've missed anything, of course.

    Usually the media would have been itching to hype up such things!

    They did hype up the prospects of 'Great Recession II' last year (fuelled by the Covid pandemic) that never seemed to materialise in the same way as the last one back in 2008-09, at least not in this country.

  8. #28
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Do you think it's another way to control us using fear? It worked a treat with the pandemic, I certainly did everything the government said because I was terrified. Could this be a similar situation?

  9. #29
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by Catkins View Post
    Do you think it's another way to control us using fear? It worked a treat with the pandemic, I certainly did everything the government said because I was terrified. Could this be a similar situation?
    I wouldn't think so. What would energy suppliers gain from that? Smart benefits them because it provides more accurate data for your bills (no more estimates people hate that increase their DDs) and keeps your consumption history clearer so your payments are closer to what they should be. They allow staff to quickly examine what has always meant sending an engineer or meter reader out to do (if your meter is inside you have to be there so maybe time off work). Having more accurate data means your switches are cleaner and less likely to fail due to some industry data error you won't know about. They will allow change of tendencies to be smoother with less disputes of moving in or out readings (and the landlords or developers who try to dump the power used inbetween on some poor tenant or buying. See an them try it plenty of times).

    Smart is touted as a way to have a monitor showing your costs. People ask if that's such a big deal? But they don't see the leap forward at the supplier end allowing a much more accurate and efficient billing service.

    There are some possible unintended consequences. Dorabella mentioned remote shutdown. Currently engineers go out to vacant properties to turn a handle on a gas meter for safety. Smart can do it from a button click at the supplier end. But it can also mean cutting you off due to non payment. This is where industry regulation has to capture it in processes. It already does but smart means adjustments to incorporate these technology changes.

    Will it go wrong? Absolutely. It already does. There is always staff error, poor management checks or authorisation done poorly. There will be moronic managers who think the customer is a piece of dirt just as there have always been. There will be directors who may be tempted to date cash by being dodgy...they are already out there (or were when I was in the industry).

    Smart is great for being green. How many green people even know how to monitor their usage properly without monitor gadgets? I do as I did that all the time for years but isn't that just like any industry; the difference between customer and professional? Smart gives you the tools I had but much faster than we monitored it. You can more easily choose to react to what is costing you and the knock on effect to green issues.

    People may not realise meters interacting with signals in your home are nothing new. Radio teleswitching meters received a nightly signal through BBC transmitters ensuring they switched properly between day & night. When the hour went forward or back the signal updated that. Smart does this too. The vast majority of switching rate meters were manual therefore the hour would change but the meter wouldn't. And manufacturers didn't always set them the same so the way to check was to see when the night rate red dial started moving.

    Beyond domestic, business metering was always doing more advanced things e.g. 30 minute readings.

    It's not as big a leap as people might think. Metering has always been advancing.
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  10. #30
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    Re: The Continuing Saga of the Smart Meters

    Quote Originally Posted by Catkins View Post
    Do you think it's another way to control us using fear? It worked a treat with the pandemic, I certainly did everything the government said because I was terrified. Could this be a similar situation?
    Some people already seem convinced this impending energy crisis is part of some hidden agenda and governmental conspiracy to control us, which I seriously question.

    After all, it's not just a UK-specific issue.

    Back in 2008-09 the UK govt largely got blamed for causing the GFC and talk of them using it as a vehicle to control us, despite it being a worldwide problem which actually affected certain other countries far worse than the UK (no trumpet-blowing intended), and of course the Foot and Mouth Crisis back in 2001, and the endless conspiracy theories/'control' talk that ensued back then too.

    Seriously some people don't know (or even care to know) the true facts and simply like to believe whatever suits their own agendas plus as always, play the 'know-it-all' and the 'blame game'!

    And this is basically across the entire political spectrum.

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