The Works of JRR Tolkien

[fishman65]

Crikey Darksky, you take all this very seriously don't you. And what's the Football Association got to do with Tolkien? Ah yes Denethor. 'Stay this madness!!' cried the Grey Wanderer.

I don't think any of the main characters in LOTR could have withstood the Ring's power, with perhaps the exception as you say of Galadriel. But even she admitted that had she taken it, meaning to do good, all would have loved her and despaired. And then of course there was Tom Bombadil. The Ring had no power over him, nor he over it.

[Darksky]

I like to think if there is an afterlife I could hold my own in conversation with the great man….JRRT not God

Please don’t mention the Football Association…I’m still licking my wounds.

That book…the one I got eagle from….Pictures……do you have it?

[Darksky]

Thinking of conversing with JRRT……what would you say to him Fishman and what would you ask him?

[fishman65]

I like to think if there is an afterlife I could hold my own in conversation with the great man….JRRT not God

Please don’t mention the Football Association…I’m still licking my wounds.

That book…the one I got eagle from….Pictures……do you have it?

I'm sure I don't Darksky. On the subject of what would I ask Mr Tolkien? I'll need to think about that, anxiety is high right now which always befuddles clarity of thought.

Never mind Man Utd, try supporting Everton. On the Everton badge you have 'Nil Satis, Nisi Optimum'. In English that means 'Never Score, Never Win'.

[Darksky]

So is it pistols at dawn when they meet Fishman? Knowing them it will be a boring nil apiece draw.
I have been sent Tik Toks all day by various unfunny people, who think they are hilarious…all taking the p*sis out of Man Utd.

That Haarland is going to be force to be reckoned with. A bargain price too.

I hope your anxiety calms down soon. Mine usually peaks in the morning and I’m alright after that.

[fishman65]

OK what would I ask Tolkien? What's his favourite vegetable?

Hmm its a tough one and haven't really given it any more thought than my previous post. How about 'was LOTR et al a commentary on Nazi Germany?' On the face of it, we could argue 'yes'. After all, Mr Hitler would have been an obvious inspiration for the creation of Sauron (or Melkor?) He suffers only those who flock to his banner, casting all others who oppose it to oblivion.

But then is this too obvious? After all, the Roman Empire or even our own British Empire could fit that inspirational 'bad guy'. Perhaps ask him if industrialisation/deforestation is the inspiration. This has been suggested before of course. There is much tree felling and burning carried out by both Sauron's and Saruman's servants. Tolkien notes this repeatedly, especially with Treebeard and the Ent's suffering at the hands of Saruman's orcs and their axes. Forever hacking and burning, many a young tree gone forever. Being a lover of trees and all things nature myself, I found this theme particularly compelling.

Parts of the Nene Valley in Northamptonshire where I was born and grew up have disappeared under steel warehouses and tarmac. 'The Scouring of the Shire' seems to me an all too familiar setting.

Other questions? What would he have made of the film trilogy? Or the earlier attempt circa 1979 which in my opinion was bit of a mish-mash and VERY difficult to make any sense of if you hadn't read the book. Would he have liked to see the Silmarillion on screen?

A question for you Darksky. Did you cry at reading 'The Grey Havens' for the first time? Hugs back at ya

[Darksky]

Yes I did ( and I imagine you did too or you wouldn’t have asked ) The parting of Sam and Frodo was awful. The fact that middle earth would be a lesser place without the Eldar. Although I believe many Sindar remained briefly. It’s a loss.

the grey rain curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise…..

Beautiful words and it brings a lump to your throat even now,

But it didn’t knock me for six like the last paragraph in the Silmarillion…

….and to the firstborn the world grew old and grey. In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left middle earth forever….……in the twilight of autumn it sailed of of Mithlond ( the last ship of Cirdan) until the seas of the bent world fell away beneath it and the winds of the round sky troubled it no more, and borne upon the high airs above the mists of the world it passed away into the ancient west and an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song.

This took place in the 4 th age when the dominion of men was in place.

now this is where my madness becomes complete…I felt sooo damn cheated that they had gone from the world, that all we are left with are men. I’m annoyed still that all this happened so long ago and we are left in a lesser world without the Eldar. Now I know you’re thinking she’s finally lost the plot but I blame the writing. It reads like history, like it’s real doesn’t it. And I’ve read somewhere that Tolkien himself felt he was writing a definite history, of something that had happened long ago..not merely writing a story. If the madness is good enough for him, well that’s ok for me too.

My questions for him are not so well thought out as yours.
Firstly I want to know what happened to Maglor. After he cast his Silmaril into the sea unable to stand the burning of his hand, he wandered the shores of the world forever, lamenting his despair and grief, and probably regretting he didn’t call childline to report the woeful parenting skills of his father Feanor. Is he still out there somewhere? He was in middle earth and there’s no mention of him being aboard Cirdans last ship. Where the heck is he Mr.Tolkien. I like loose ends tied up and Maglor is a very loose one for me.

Then I’d ask him why he killed Finrod Felagund off, sacrificing himself for that lame ass Beren. Dying in the dark in his own tower after being captured by Sauron. He was one of my favourite characters so I’m ill pleased with his demise Mr.Tolkien.

Then just for devilment. I’d ask him why the eagles couldn’t have just taken the ring to mount doom

[Darksky]

Just for the record…if ever, ever, they make a film of the Silmarillion I will implode with sheer horror.

I don’t think Tolkien would have appreciated the films. The stories were far too precious to him. He would have disagreed with so much….bit like me really.

So no Silmarillion……not on my watch!

[fishman65]

I do think the Silmarillion needs fleshing out a bit. Its very abstract, like trying to seize a rainbow. Supernatural, God-like beings are difficult to picture, maybe that's the point. But the reason I prefer LOTR is because the characters are solid beings like you and I. Orcs, who's ranks include such gritty names like Ugluk, Grishnakh, Snaga and Shagrat, are visceral creatures. Their breath stinks, they swear and they'd stick a blade in each other's guts at the drop of a hat. The average orc den reeks like a rancid charnel pit. It reminds me of myself when I was a teenager.

And we're not just left with men, look at all the women on NMP. Was the departure of the Eldar really such a loss to middle earth? All that pomp and ceremony, all that physical and spiritual perfection. Their high voices singing like the disembodied spirit of the Mallorn trees?

I did have a sniffle at 'The Grey Havens'. 'I will not say, do not weep. For not all tears are an evil'. Gandalf Greyhame. And thus were Frodo and Sam parted, carried far adrift upon the tides of fate and time.

And Lo!! Aragorn son of Arathorn, the King who has returned, reached the top of the ridge. He looked down upon the hosts of Mordor, and frowned, looking most displeased. Dismay fell upon the 800,000 orcs, 100,000 Southrons and 20,000 trolls. And they cast themselves down and sued for peace. And thus was the Battle of the Playing Fields won.

[Darksky]

You have a different view of the Eldar than me.

I agree the Silmarillion needs fleshing out. Tolkien can slaughter someone in a sentence. I feel cheated a little, that there’s no more emotion and detail.

However I disagree that they were spiritually perfect. I don’t think they were high singing, fluffy, ethereal beings. I agree they were a little like that in the LOTRs but I think their true selves were played out in the Silmarillion. They were as ruthless as any orc you would have the misfortune to meet. They suffered from pride, envy, misplaced lust and more murderous intentions than you could shake a stick at. At the kinslaying of Aqualonde the Noldor ruthlessly murdered their kin by the score, thus evoking the curse of Valar. They were solid beings…remember orcs were fashioned from them. Captured and experimented on mentally and physically until they were corrupted.

These are the Eldar that I love…not Legolas singing a pretty Lay to pass the time.

I guess if we were Elrond and Elros…you would choose to be Elros while I would be Elrond. ……Cos play?