Religion???????????????????

[purplehaze]

Ade I am not suggesting people as being ignorant but to give this subject justice it does require an open mind and also an knowledge of spiritual issues. The analogy I feel is justified for the reasons I gave.

I also was brought up in a strict catholic family but after looking at that religion and many others I found what I was looking for in Christianity.

As you are an atheist I would support you and stand up for your right to be an Atheist as I would any other religion, faith or walk of life.

Yes there are many things that we dont understand on this planet or the universe but for me as a Christian I put my faith in the God of the Bible.
I would not ever say that I am a better person than the next because of my faith because I am only a forgiven sinner.
Life is a privilege and I totally respect your views on this subject

[ade]

kev mate
my reaction to your post was too strong so i deleted it.its odd mate but whilst i am atheist,i find deep spiritual peace in the music of Faure,Allegri,Ockegham,Barber,the ultimate lament upon innocence which is the Coventry Carol.....and the sex pistols!!.
on the underside of my right arm is a tattoo of an olive branch,and im sure i dont need to explain the significance of that image!
so every time i offer my hand in friendship,i extend the olive branch,and i extend it to you.We disagree,thats all,and truth is born of a healthy clash of ideas
kindest regards Ade x

[Franz]

Violence, self-interest and greed are traits of human beings, not of religion. Stalin and Hitler killed millions of innocent people because they felt like it, not because of any religious belief.

franz

'
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."[
adolf hitler
1927

I know Hitler was nominally a Christian, but his Christianity isn't what really motivated him and isn't what brought him to power. He understood the Church's usefulness as a conduit of authority and social control, but from what I understand he was in no way really a religious man.

Besides, Hitler's interpretation of Christianity was so twisted that it seems unreasonable to blame his actions on Christianity.

[ade]

Franz
thank you for your intelligent reply.But i dont blame christianity,i blame the whole over arcing concept of religion for providing the conduit you speak of for deluded sociopaths to carry out acts of mass murder.the 21st century epidemic of suicide bombing is an example.these people are convinced they are acting out gods will.whilst this idea remains,there will always be this obscene level of slaughter of the innocent,except to the bomber,they are not innocent.so it really seems to me that we have reached an almost personalised apocalypse,one religion fighting another,both(or all) convinced they have the support of god.i am happily married to a devout catholic,and had a previous relationship with a Jewish woman of russian extraction whose grand parents fled anti-semitic persecution.these relationships have greatly informed my views.i love the utter beauty in some peoples faith but i find organised religion,as you yourself said,an all to easily found conduit for the evil that it purports to fight.how can the specific religion abdicate its responsibilty,for example,for the death of the 13 yr old girl in Somalia,buried up to her neck and stoned to death.her crime?adultery, she was gang raped.the surrounding religious doctrine informs those fanatics that this is correct and gods will under sharia law.there are just too many examples of this, on a macro and micro scale,throughout history.this is my view,and it is a view of a structure,an edifice,not a view of individual people.people are capable of a spiritual beauty that for me,is the zenith of existence but it is my unwavering view that religion as a structure is inherently dangerous.
a previous post details my suffering at the hands of the catholic church
i was sexually abused (another epidemic) please dont tell me that the church is not responsible for that too.its time to own these evils done in gods name,then maybe we can move on.my views are strong i admit,but i am as entitled to them as you are yours.i wish you peace and love
ade x

[purplehaze]

Although ase's views may be strong they are not without merit, in that what he has said over this post is true. Acts done in the name of God, be that the God of the Bible or that of the Qur'an are all done by fanatic's. Each teaches peace but have been so twisted by hatefull people that the world past and present has suffered.

For those who have been hurt by religious fanatic's it is difficult if not impossible for them to see the true message. As a Christian I cannot just whitewash what has happened to ade by the catholic church and the many others. I have seen whitewashing happen to often and evil spreads while good people sleep.

What I will say is that the message of Christianity is one of hope and love and the biggest act of love was Jesus dying on that cross.

I have read your comments with interest ade and also with great sorrow for what you have gone through.

I shake your hand with that olive branch

[bluesky]

Hi all

Whether or not Religion helps us as individuals not even the clerics can answer I fear. I have for many years now been a Buddhist not because it seems to be a designer Religion practised by Celebrity's but because I was searching for something Spiritual rather than Religious. Whilst out walking many years ago in Eskdalemuir in Scotland I happened across the Samye Ling Tibetan Centre and spent many hours there conversing with the Tibetan Monks. They referred me to a book on Buddhism For Beginners(yes there really is such a thing). The book I purchased soon after and read it from cover to cover a number of times each time understanding a little more. When I finally reached the last page which the Monks had advised me not to read until I felt sure I had an understanding all there were were two words........."It is".

After reading 169 pages about a dozen times I was flabbergasted not to mention paying £16.99 surely this can't be it? "It Is".......Twenty odd years on I now understand that actually (FOR ME) it works. I accept each day as it comes realising that they won't all be good nor should I expect them to be and acceptance of pain & suffering is one of the paths to enlightenment. Life is not without pain or suffering but how you deal with it will make a difference. However you find that acceptance will lead to Spiritual well being. If for you that can be reached through Religion then grasp it with both hands.

I wish you well

Bluesky

[ade]

it is a fact that certain christian fundamentalists believe that by ignoring the environmentalist guidelines over pollution,they are hastening the end of the world and helping to bring the second coming of christ.
sources..Focus BBC Magazine....thehumanistsociety.net..the god delusion by richard dawkins

' Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.'(quote Grist environmental website 27.10.04)


i live in a secular western democracy which affords me the right to free speech and observation
this debate has hitherto been an amazing illustration of the commendable abilities of people of different faiths and perspectives to agree to disagree in a dignified manner.

[ade]

an interesting piece of journalism that to me illustrates the danger of all fundamentalism,anywhere in the world.......id love to hear your views.....
'If Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, America's invasion of Iraq and the consequent brutal slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians in that country are all part of a grand divine plan that will finally culminate in the 'second coming' of Jesus Christ. Establishing an empire that will extend all over the globe, Christ will rule like a powerful monarch, saving those who believe in him and dispatching non-believers, all non-Christians and non-conformist Christians, to everlasting perdition in hell. This is no childish nonsense for millions of Christian fundamentalists, who sincerely believe this to be predicted in the Bible. Not surprisingly, American Christian fundamentalists are today among the most fanatic supporters of Bush's global imperialist wars, in Iraq and elsewhere, which they see as in keeping with the divine mandate. They are no eccentric or lunatic fringe elements, for today Christian fundamentalists exercise a powerful influence in American politics. Among them is George Bush himself, who insists that the American invasion of Iraq has been sanctioned by God, with whom he claims to be in personal communication.
While the Western press is awash with stories, real and exaggerated, about 'Islamic fundamentalists', rarely is mention made about Christian fundamentalists, who, with their vast resources and close links with the current American administration, are a potentially more menacing threat than their Muslim counterparts. According to newspaper reports more than a third of Americans are associated with one or the other Christian fundamentalist outfit, most of which are fiercely anti-communist, anti-Muslim and are passionate advocates of free-market capitalism, global American hegemony and the myth of the civilizing mission of white America. In recent years, these fundamentalist groups have been engaged in aggressive missionary work in other countries as well, including in the so-called 'Third World'. Fired by a passionate hatred for other religions, which they dismiss as 'false' and even 'Satanic', they are today among the most well-funded missionary groups in large parts of Asia and Africa. Crusading for Christ, these fundamentalist groups are not simply out fishing for souls. Rather, for them Christianity is only part of the agenda, which also includes aggressively promoting American and Zionist interests. Today, these groups preach not only Christ but also Pax Americana and even American-led imperialist wars, which they bless as holy causes to usher in the final arrival of Jesus.
Texas-based author and preacher Michael Evans is one of the most notorious American Christian fundamentalist preachers today, a passionate advocate of war in the name of Christ. In a recently published book, titled 'Beyond Iraq: The Next Move-Ancient Prophecy and Modern-Day Conspiracy Collide' (Whitestone Books, Florida, 2003), he spells out a grand design for American global hegemony, blessed in the guise of a holy global war. Key players in this 'divine' plot include the CIA, the American government and army, and Israel, besides various Christian fundamentalist outfits. The book is dedicated, among others, to what Evans describes as 'two old friends', Ehud Olmert, former Israeli Vice President, and the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Equally revealingly, the book begins with a quotation which graces the lobby of the original headquarters of the CIA.
Evans is no petty crank who claims to be God-possessed, although his writings might seem to suggest that. The jacket of the book describes him as a 'TIME magazine best-selling author', who has appeared on the BBC and on American television channels and who has written for such papers as the Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post. He hobnobs with the highest of American and Israeli politicians and religious leaders, and is evidently taken very seriously in Christian fundamentalist circles. That Evans is also a passionate Bush-backer is amply evident in his clam that, 'I know, from a first hand, personal interview with him that Bush is a man of faith who believes in the Bible'.

yoginder Sikand (counter currents.org)
17.11.05