sooooo sad

[Bill]

Hello Dear Emma

A few things you've said in the last couple of posts I'd like to comment on to see if you'd agree what I feel about things? I've copied all the points that I feel are important which I feel are probably most relevant which I'll add to in turn before summarising at the end with my thoughts.

I'm sure alot of people will relate with your situation Emma and I've certainly known of one or two myself in the past...including probably me!

Some words immediately come to mind - "being controlled", "emotional abuse" and "feeling trapped".

my husband and his family have been able to treat me the way they have because i have no family of my own

In other words they've felt they can push their will upon you without any resistance...until now.

his parents - they have been overly involved and have had a certain amount of control; over the situation and my husband - this is what i am trying to stop and what my husband seems unwilling to give up - i think this is the crux of the problem

You feel better in yourself, feel stronger and want what "you" want but they have been used to having control over you and getting you to do what "they" want....perhaps even because they "think" they know what's best in the interest of their son rather than in your interest?

he says he wants the relationship - but i have said he cannot continue to bully and emotionaly abuse me - which yes he is doing and which the counsellor accused him of doing

now i have found me again and that goes against the grain

He's used to dominating you because that's where he wants you - under his thumb - so that he can control you to suit himself but now that you feel stronger and want what "you" want, he's resisting because he fears losing what he's always enjoyed having.

i had counselling at the beginning of my condition in 2000 and the guy then said that in his opinion my probs were due to my relationship

When we're emotionally abused it will cause low self-esteem. When we're controlled, we will feel anxious and trapped which will lead to anxiety symptoms such as agoraphobia which will then be used against a sufferer to make them think they need their "controlling partner" because they couldn't cope alone.

somebody who wants something so bad that they are blind to what they are doing to the person they claim to love and care about

I don't think it's that they're blind to it, they want to keep the sufferer as they were so can't see anything wrong in what they're doing because they were happy the way things were regardless of the effects of their treatment on the sufferer.

surely if you love someone you would be really really happy for them to acheive something and you would show it?

No, because to give encouragement would be to create a stronger partner which isn't what they want because it will undermine their control over them and therefore their happiness because they were happy with getting what they want by keeping their partner feeling weak.

in all the years ive known him, hes never really showed me any positivity or encouragement

He wouldn't for the same reasons I've said above. He wouldn't want you to change because he'd lose control.

the other day he called me a troublemaker, and i could sense him using this word to try to get me where i am most vulnerable.... i think it is a sign of desperation?

It's a tactic to make you feel "you're wrong" in the hope of regaining control by making you feel weak and inferior.

i feel too old to start again, i would prob be too old by the time i was fit enough to have another relationship?

I think you're in your thirties? Hardly old my Dear Emma! You just "feel" old because of the pressure you're feeling but often once a heavy boulder is lifted off us, we actually feel as young as you are and you would have plenty of time for dreams to come true.

he just doesnt get any of it - but he can be so mean and cold if he isnt getting things his own way - and again like you mine seems to think this will have no impact on how i feel about him, and then goes on to blame me for how hes behaving

Back to the same tactics of trying to undermine your confidence to keep control over you because you're threatening "his" happiness.

i spoke to him this morning and he basically says its up to me - which to my mind is like saying 'yeah go ahead, i dont care' - but then he also says that he doesnt want to split.......we have had this conversation a few times in the last 4 yrs, and although i feel upset and worried about it again, i dont feel depressed by it like i did in the past

He must be used to you saying this so is calling your bluff because he feels that you couldn't walk out because he's made you feel too weak with anxiety but that if you didn't go back to being "sunbmissive" then he wouldn't care if you did walk out because he could no longer have his own way all the time anyway. He only wants you to stay providing you remain as you used to be.

- part of me isnt frightened at the planning of splitting - just not sure i would cope with weekends and holiday times alone - and i really would be alone -maybe this is what is stopping me from leaving?

He probably knows these are your fears so will use them to try and keep you under his control but in reality your fears would probably evaporate because you'd no longer have the pressure of a heavy boulder keeping you under a thumb.


I think to sum up, it sounds as though he and his parents have taken charge over you and have got used to doing as they want with your life to suit them. Perhaps they feel they've been "looking after you" in their way without accepting that you have a life of your own or perhaps they're just used to controlling others? Either way, now that you're feeling stronger, you're resisting their treatment towards you which is causing them friction because they won't back down to accept the "new" you.

Perhaps his parents are worried for their son if you left so will use emotional tactics to try to get you to stay such as using guilt tactics. Perhaps he also uses emotional tactics to try and keep you as you were because he enjoyed things as they were.

At the end of the day though, neither his parents or him seem to be thinking about "you" and what "you" want with "your" life. They don't want you to change from how you've been because they were happy with the way things were as they could do what they wanted with you.

As you know Dear Emma I am in no postion to advise you what you should do because of my own siuation and how I feel here but I Would say to you is try to forget your fears and think about what would make "you" feel happy IF his parents and himself won't change how they are treating you.

I can't leave here for my reasons and you may have yours. Often if a partner is happy with a situation, "they" won't leave which then makes it even harder for the sufferer to decide what would make them happy with their life. Remember though that IF a split does occur, you Will cope Fine!...and if you didn't want to, I'm Sure someone as lovely as you wouldn't be alone for long!!!

[PUGLETMUM]

my god bill, have you actually been in some of my therapy sessions???? are you psychic??? every single thing you have said is 1000% spot on!!!!! - my therapist told me i had been a 'victim' of my husbands mum and the realtionship counsellor said the same - that his parents were too much in this relationship and that my husband had let them do his job - you said they like to control me - yes and they aslo like to control one another, so if i go it will only continue with someone else - if they get the chance to take over they will.

thankyou for your reply bill - for taking the time to write all of that, for caring enough to do that

it is a very odd feeling im having at the moment - like horrible dawning revelation - i CANNOT beleive that this has been going on - and obviously i only came to realise it becasue i wanted it to stop - part of me feels very resigned that it will end because i cannot and will not live the rest of my short life like this - i have known great sadness and i dont want to feel that anymore if i dont have to. but obviously im on new territory here, and its scary and yes the phobias and fears play a big role - i agree with you that they would be less without the stress and i also agree with you that they 'know' how to use these fears to get what they want - i feel very sad to think that if i walk away he will only be bothered becasue he didnt 'win' - this makes me sadder than anything, becasue i loved and trusted him, but now when i look back i dont think he ever felt the ame as me - i feel as thoguh its been one long game on his part where do i find the strength to go on alone???? knowing all of this, feeling this hurt and betrayed?

[Bill]

Hello Dear Emma

I guess I've just come across similar situations before and of course in some ways can relate things with my own situation. I wouldn't want to sway you one way or another though because you need to think what would make "you" happy.

I wonder how much influence his parents have over him and does he just agree with what they think is best for you and him? Some parents feel the need to "interfere" and to try and run their childrens lives by being over-protective or because of an unwillingness to let go. Sometimes parents just enjoy controlling their childrens and subsequent partners lives by living their lives for them. Sometimes they can be forceful with their opinions as to what they feel is best. I wonder if he feels hassled because they're telling him what they think is best for you but now you feel well enough to make your own decisions?

However, that is just about his parents. I wonder how much they have influenced his thinking and behaviour towards you? It could be that he feels he has to treat you in the same way as he has been treated by them? They always feel they know what is right so he's picked up the same way of thinking. Perhaps neither he or his parents are used to being opposed as they both enjoy having control over others lives?

One last thought is that you mention your husbands mum as being the "chief controller". My guess is that she maybe the boss in her relationship as well. She sounds a domineering mother who enjoys interfering and so I can imagine how she thinks and how she is treating your husband telling him what she thinks is right. I do think though that perhaps he "may" have picked up some of her traits based on what you've described about he's also trying to control you or perhaps is it rather he is just doing what his mother is telling him rather than telling her it's his life to save himself hassle from her by disagreeing? However, he's certainly not treating you in the way a genuine loving husband would as to do so would be by putting "your" feelings and "your" happiness first rather than what "he" wants and what "he" is happy with. No one should control anothers life. Caring on "his" terms isn't right.

Just some thoughts. I'd be interested to hear what you think?

Thinking of you.

[PUGLETMUM]

no bill strange enough he doesnt actually have what i would class as a close relationship wiht his mum - in th epast his mum has said things to him that have been supporting him to be rubbish towards me and he has told me - also she made a couple of attempts to emotionally blackmail him when i started to feel well enough to have my daughter with me and again he divulged this information to me?

the odd thing is that he seems to 'know' that his mum has some sort of issue here but he seems to not 'care' - like it doesnt matter that she wants to have soem say over his life -hes okay with that, becasue of what they provide for him - safety, security, support, money????

my prob is i didnt have time to 'see' all of this behaviour because i jumped right in - however i can say that right from the beginning she was overbearing and she makes it imposssible for you to say no thanks to anythign without her being offended or it causing an argument - my daughter doesnt actuallu feel that comfortable with her anymore but again thats my fault for brainwashing my daughter - it couldnt just possibly be that they themselves are the casue of this!

i can give you exaample after example of situations that have given me casue to worry about this - i dont think its 'normal' or healthy and i beleive that this is the core reason why my relationship is in trouble?

[Bill]

Hello Dear Emma

Would it be fair to say that his mother constantly interferes but he lets her get on with it because he's not bothered as her interference doesn't trouble "him" and it's easier just to agree?

You say she's overbearing, a dominant strong character and no doubt she's also rigid in her beliefs so maybe she "feels she knows" how your daughter should be brought up so tries to take over as being "mum"?

I think also that it sounds like she has other issues which may stem from her own past.

However, although no doubt her interference and controlling affects your relationship, I'm not sure that it's really the main issue. What I mean is that your husband could still just say "yes" to whatever she says but ultimately he should be on "your side" by being supportive to you. As you've said here.... his parents were too much in this relationship and that my husband had let them do his job. He has "let" his mother take over for whatever reason but he's not prepared to oppose her and back his wife as he should. So what I'm saying is that he is allowing her to interfere and control your lives. Therefore, the question would be why?

Perhaps as you say it's because of what they provide for him - safety, security, support, money???? He wouldn't want to lose that. Maybe it's also an easy way out to avoid responsibility he doesn't want? Is this I wonder connected to his feelings towards you? You said earlier but seems more angry than unhappy - but angry for what If he is carrying alot of anger, it will cause him to, as you say, be cold, bully and emotionally abuse you but for some reason he hasn't walked out instead. I know he cares about you but I wonder if he has felt "comfortable" in his situation as he's been allowed to just do as he wants but now that you're feeling more capable, his comfort is being threatened?

To sum up, yes, his parents are intefering too much but I feel only because he is letting them because that way he doesn't have the responsibility and hassle that he doesn't want because of his feelings (anger) towards you and by doing so, he has been able to do whatever he wants and lead a comfortable life. Now though, you're feeling stronger and are trying to get him to behave as a loving husband should but he's resisting because of his reasons above which is then causing the friction.

Does that make any sense or am I way off???

As you say, it sounds rather complex but I'll keep trying to help you!

[PUGLETMUM]

no bill, it isnt complex although i can see why you would think that - you are again spot on my friend!!!!!

it is the single most frustrating situation i have ever found myself in - becasue to leave is going to be very stressful - last time this happend to me i only had me to think of and i hadnt been agoraphobic for 8 years, with all the memories and associations that that brings - i mean whenever i think about doing something i think 'can i do this, is this going to take me back to where i was before' - i htink like lots of us do - i fear change and upheaval, becasue in the past it has left me so stressed.

wha tyou have said is exactly as it is - i have never felt he loved me but he says he does - so i think the only question here is, do i accept that and make that be enough for me - or do i say well i dont feel what yuo are giving is enough and i actually feel you are holding me back and i want to move on alone? this is why im so upset - because i beleived he did feel the same towards me, but as the years have gone by and things have happened, im now doubting his feelings and motivations more than ever - and possibly one of the saddest things for me is to realise tha tthe man i thought i loved is a scared, silly spoilt little boy and not the big hearted capable strong man i wanted - again though how can i blame him when i didnt wait long enough to see who he really was? thankyou bill for continuing to care it is much appreciated to have someone to talk to about this

[bobobob]

Emma, I am very new to this sight, so you are helping me get the confidence to start writing. I think you are very brave to face what you have. I can only offer you a virtual hug, but a big one. Somebody else is thinking of you.
Bob

[PUGLETMUM]

THANKYOU

[Bill]

Hello Dear Emma

I think there will be Alot of people who will think of you because I'm sure there must be many who can relate with how you're feeling. As you know about my situation, in some ways I can relate with you too.

I think the reason it feels complex is because your posts are like snapshots of years of experiences and so it takes a while to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. After all, why does counselling take so long to heal? Often it just isn't that simple. Sometimes though people will post about a specific problem and the causes can be easily identified but lifetime experiences I think are another ball game and so can take much longer.

I think that when we suffer from anxiety, our minds will always be filled with self-doubt but often the thoughts are worse than the actual situation we fear because we always actually find a way to cope to survive especially when there are those who depend on us. Upheaval and change are always stressful though no matter what situations they involve whether it's changing jobs or moving house but to obtain our goals and to seek happiness, we often have to take that step forward into the unknown but if we prepare the ground beforehand, the road can be made much easier when we have a plan laid out in front of us.

A couple of examples for you which you may like to hear - I knew someone once who was an agoraphobic. They couldn't go out without suffering panic attacks but they were also in an abusive controlling marriage so their life was pure misery. Soon after I met them, they also started to receive help from a therapist. One day they told me they had managed to get to a shop and home again without suffering a panic attack. Gradually their confidence grew enough for them to leave their marriage but they feared coping alone especially with the kids depending on them. However, once they were free, they sprouted wings and after a stressful period things settled. They found a job and became a "top dog". They went abroad for holidays and to cap it all they met their ideal partner. They are now really happy with their life and free of the anxieties that kept them confined.

I'm not just making this up either Emma because this is a true life story!

Speaking of myself, you know how much I went through in the first years of my marriage caring for my wife. The anxieties I've suffered such as OCD, panic attacks, health anxiety etc and the things I used to do to myself such as selfh and od's. When I was working full time without any support in the home, I reached a point where I lost all hope of any future because I felt so trapped. It was only after I saw a psychologist that I learnt that I didn't have to work full time to survive. He actually told me I had too much on my plate and that I had to give up my wife or my job for the sake of my own health.

I feared the change. Would we really have enough to live on? Could I cope mentally at home without support? Would my anxieties ever subside? Would I be making a terrible mistake? I had lots of self-doubts so I decided to get more advice. I went to see the CAB, called the DSS, got help from carers organisations and pushed for more help in the home. It was an extremely difficult period and in actual fact my mental health got worse for a while but gradually with all the things I had put in place, life became easier and more settled. Of course as you know I'm not entirely happy even now but nor do I do any of the things I used to and now on the whole I cope with my anxieties.

Sometimes we have to go through a storm before the sun shines again but often if we don't take that walk, we forever stay under the cloud with continuous rain! However, I also realise that sometimes there are issues we feel we simply cannot face so then we have to try and accept what we do have rather than dwell on the things out of our reach although at times I know how difficult that is.

What I'm saying is, we all have choices but it's for the individual to decide whether to "stick or twist". I must admit though that in my experience the people I've known like yourself who have what I call "inner strength" are the ones who most often lead the happier lives.

how can i blame him when i didnt wait long enough to see who he really was?

But Dear Emma, nor can you blame yourself either! No one is to blame Emma. Life means risk and countless decisions to make. We meet, we gain friends, we fall in love but it's only after a Long time passes that we find out who is sincere and who is not. Also though as we grow older, people often change. Some grow close together whereas others drift apart but the future always lies hidden. If we all had crystal balls maybe we could always find everlasting happiness but life just isn't like that! We can only try to keep moving forward without dwelling on the past.

If you were to blame yourself then you'd have to blame him too because it was a joint decision. He could have said let's wait too! However, neither of you are really to blame because no doubt he didn't want to wait either. Even if you had waited, how long has it taken before you've realised things aren't working? Some people can live together for decades before suddenly finding they've drifted apart. That's life though. We all make mistakes because we're all only human. You can't beat yourself up Emma for not realising years later that he wouldn't treat you the way you hoped he would.

You know, from the time I met my wife to the time we got married, it all took just 8 months. I could easily say to myself I should have waited but what's done is done! I can't turn the clock back and who's to say that if I'd broken it off and met someone else that my life would have turned out any better? It could have been much worse for all I know! I think in life we are given "packages". Some things within our package we'll never like but other parts we will. Finding a package that meets our needs 100% I think is a very hard thing to achieve! We could spend a lifetime searching through different packages and end up never being satisfied. Sometimes we just have to take a chance, undo the wrapper that looks so inviting and just hope that what's inside meets "most" of our requirements but we should never regret taking that chance. Only when there is nothing good left in a package and we can't retrieve the good we orignally found, should we then discard it to start again.

All marriages go through bad spells though but where love and trust still exist beneath the turmoil, I believe there is always hope if both parties are prepared to work to mend what has been damaged. Sometimes though when love is totally lost, sadly it can never be reignited. However, I'm sure there are plenty of plutonic marriages that exist for the benefit of both parties because they still find comfort in each others company. Life is never back and white, and no one should judge another before knowing the full facts. Nor should we judge ourselves too harshly unless of course we're really that bad!

Life is full of grey areas and what might mean happiness to one person, can mean misery to another. Only the individual can decide what would make them feel happiest regardless of the fears invoked at the thought of change that create barriers between the unhappy present and our future happiness.

It's a Pleasure "talking" to you Dear Emma. I just hope my talking Too much is of some help to you!

[PUGLETMUM]

yes bill it is lovely to have you take the time to respond and be so empathetic (is that how you spell it?) and so understanding and nonjudgmental - like you say it is so complex and so individual - and also i might add nothing like we see in movies - although the film 17 again with zac effron did depict a marriage that had failed - but being hollywood it had a fairy tale ending!

i think im just finding it so hard to accept that someone can be so mean and hurtful because they cant get their own way - and i dont know whats really motivating him - he will not communicate and never has done!!!!! surely a major reason we are in this mess? the relate counsellor said he hadnt opened up or connected with her, he hadnt taken it serioulsy or commited to the process - anyway im not going to waffle and bore you with the details again - thanks for your continued support bill - it means alot