Is this recovery? DARE I hope?

[YvonneBelle]

I own me, and therefore, I can engineer me.

I'm going to pinch that excellent thought! I'm currently re-engineering myself at the gym.

Yes, great post. Gets people thinking and talking and that's what it's all about.

The prison of depression. Imagine peeking through the bars of a jail door. The bars are just wide enough to slip an arm through. Imagine a large key in the lock of the door (that you can't see and are unaware of) with a huge round metal key ring attached. Imagine that you could easily slip your arm through and reach the key if only you knew it was there and realised you could.

I think as humans we are much more powerful than we realise. Imagine what great feats have been achieved by individuals but also by the collective. Who could design a watch from scratch? Think of how the pyramids got built. Imagine designing the first telescope and exploring space when most of the rest of the world thought that the moon orbited the earth purely for earth's own entertainment?!

I sometimes think of these things and wonder about the power of the human mind when it comes to healing. Some of what happens is purely automatic (like sending hormones around the body) but we can think our thoughts as we like. There is some element of choice there. Our brains might be vulnerable to interference and zigzags but we can try and filter out noise and we can try and focus and concentrate better.

In some respects, I think we intuitively know what's best for us, but during depression we get stuffed with cotton wool and horse hair which in turn creates an internal fog which means we can lose our sense of clarity and direction. But if you can imagine a huge wind machine blowing through you and dispersing all of the gunk in your system - then what you are left with is still you. I personally don't think the true essence of you changes because you are depressed. I think it just means we need to work that little bit harder to realise why we are depressed and then get rid of that unecessary gunk that has fogged our brains ready for a new chapter in our lives.

That's how it feels for me at the moment. I'm having a big clear out both physically and metaphorically. I think it's a pretty healthy thing to do but sometimes if we don't do it soon enough.... our bodies go on strike and wave a red flag until we sit up, take notice and do something about it.

[Gordon64]

Suz-nothing weird about it-you are quite right. No-one has to read if they don't want to-the fact that people like yourself have and have taken something from it and seen fit to reply is great. I am glad to be part of such an interesting debate and exchange of views.

Yvonne-a "clearout"-yeah I reckon that's a pretty damn good analogy-we ARE essentially the same underneath the "fog" but it is clearing that out to leave the "real" us that is so important. There is a helluva lot of junk as you put it but disposing of it a bit at a time is the answer.

Thanks for your replies and I won't apologise again for "going on"-if I hadn't I wouldn't have had such a feeling of support and understanding.

Got work tomorrow so going to get some sleep but keep posting and continuing on your own path to freeing yourselves from depression and anxiety.

G

[NickT]

I'm just catching up with all of your stimulating posts this morning. There's so much I want to say, but as my brain is pretty foggy this morning, so you might have to excuse some pretty random thoughts.

Yvonne- I couldn't agree with you more, our minds are powerful tools that we have at our disposal. And I'm 100% convinced that we do know what is intuitively good for us. As you say, what happens with depression is that it muddies the waters of our minds (excuse awful analogy !), creating confusion and lots of questions, doubts and indeed negative thinking where before there was clarity. And I think this is where I struggle- been a fairly typical anal male (!), I'm always searching for clarity in the world (black\white), so I basically panic when a depression descends and want it to go away ASAP. In fact, if I'm being honest, the older I've got, the more impatient I get when I do get down. So the whole embracing\accepting depression is somthing I really struggle with. Which I thing brings me back to the sitting in your skin point.

I've been seeing a really excellent CBT counsellor off and on (more off) for past 10 years. One thing thats always stuck in my mind is how she sees these times as opportunities to grow and learn more about ourselves. She almost presents it as sometimes you have to go through these horrible times to come to terms with yourself, if that makes any sense.

Gordon- I still think you are the man ! I don't think I've ever come across anyone who seems to capture exactly how my brain\mind seem to be working too. And what you say about:

but I think I just got sheer FED UP of constantly berating myself and emotionally beating myself up and just decided to Hell with it time for a new way of looking at this-not saying it's easy mind!!

....is exactly where I'm at- just struggling with the new way of looking bit !

To me though, it all boils down to squaring up to the causes of us feeling low, and by this I mean truly facing up to those inner fears without then beating ourselves up for having them, or feeling disgusted\embarassed for feeling or behaving that way. Its all about coming to terms with, and accepting 'those things that sometimes puzzle us about ourselves' as Virginia Satir says.

OK, enough pseudo philosophising (is this a word ?!). One thing I would really like your views on- I've already said that I do feel that as I've got older, I 'give up' more easily when I get low in that I'm quicker to go off work, panic, and look to meds\counselling to help me through. Or, is it just that the stuff I'm coming to terms with is deeper and more complex (i.e. the root causes not the symptoms) which is why I 'blow' more quickly as they seem much harder to deal with. Does this make sense to anyone ?

Thanks for listening

Nick

[YvonneBelle]

One thing I would really like your views on-

I've already said that I do feel that as I've got older, I 'give up' more easily when I get low in that I'm quicker to go off work, panic, and look to meds\counselling to help me through. Or, is it just that the stuff I'm coming to terms with is deeper and more complex (i.e. the root causes not the symptoms) which is why I 'blow' more quickly as they seem much harder to deal with. Does this make sense to anyone ?

Yes Nick it does. I'm the same. I've dealt with loads without meds... r'ship breakdowns, jobs going pear shaped, relocating (several times), even moving country with disastrous results but recently, I've started a job that I haven't really taken to and hasn't been going too well and the result? Complete and utter meltown!! I DO strongly believe a lot of things have stacked up over time and where at one time I would have simply soldiered through, I've reached a point where I just feel like throwing my toys out the pram, stamping my feet and having a really good wail about it!!!!! I just haven't got the patience to put myself through weeks of tiredness, depression, wondering what to do, feeling bad about myself, feeling lonely and unsupported.... etc. etc.

So yes, I can relate to being older and snapping much more quickly than I used to.

Perhaps deep down you want to break the whole dam even though you know it might be mega. Rather than having the occasional breach which then simply gets plugged. The overall effect is that we feel plastered up and full of cracks just waiting for the lot to come crashing down one day. (Sorry for all the metaphorical thinking but that's what I do to help myself draw a picture of how I feel.)

Yvonne

[Gordon64]

Nick, Yvonne-we are on the same wavelength!

Is it more difficult to cope as we get older? Yes, too right, because we have unfortunately had more life experience and learned that life has a habit of kicking us in the teeth and then returning for a second go (and again, and again...).

I have been hesitant to go into too much detail as to my own past experiences which have led me to this point, one because there is always people far worse off and two because the nature of this website is that it can be assumed fairly readily that most on here have had more than a few of life's knocks. Yvonne has touched on some of hers, for what it's worth in last 8 years both my parents have died, my marriage broke up, I had to move away from my children and have had about 4 different homes in as many years. Like Yvonne I have had spells on meds and spells off, and have "coped" (or not coped) with each of these events to varying degrees.

But the sum total of it all is that each different event drags you down further and further into an abyss of depression and despair-like Yvonne I have often wanted to "throw my toys out the pram" but it is exhausting and at some point we HAVE to try to come to terms with it all, difficult though it is. So having taken a long time to get there Nick I agree totally with Yvonne on this one-it is ENTIRELY NATURAL that it gets more, not less, difficult to deal with the crap that life throws at us as we get older.

It saddens me that although I have a reasonable manager and assistant manager in my workplace who have been reasonably tolerant of my absences etc... I can see so clearly in their expressions that they simply do not understand how I am feeling or why? This shouldn't be so surprising-they are both about half my age with nothing like the experiences of loss etc... that I have. That is not meant to be self-pitying, simply a statement of fact. Perhaps I just no longer care whether they get it or not anymore...

Nick I believe your CBT counsellor has a point-it is trying to teach us something and we can learn from depression. Unfortunately I think one of the lessons it is trying to drum into me is that I am in the wrong job and have been for some time.Having had access to rural mental health professionals recently it is apparent to me how much I wish I was doing something like that and not the meaningless corporate slog I am currently enduring-but realising that and giving up a (comfortable-ish) salary and future pension is quite another matter. If I was retired early through ill health (not an impossibilty) there are volunteering opportunities nearby with the local mental health centre which could eventually lead to a salaried job-believe me I am giving it a lot of thought. I certainly have the qualifications!!

Yvonne- you describe beautifully the result of all these traumas-meltdown! Couldn't have put it better. Depressed, lonely, wondering what the hell to do? Sounds awfully familiar to me...

It IS like waiting for a dam to break and yes I think it could all come crashing down sooner rather than later. But the question is how do we rebuild something better and more resilient?

If either of you have the answer to that please let me know cos that's the biggie I'm still struggling with.

All the best

Gordon

[YvonneBelle]

It saddens me that although I have a reasonable manager and assistant manager in my workplace who have been reasonably tolerant of my absences etc... I can see so clearly in their expressions that they simply do not understand how I am feeling or why? This shouldn't be so surprising-they are both about half my age with nothing like the experiences of loss etc...

I feel the same way. A lot of the people I've been working with lately are 20s/30s and think that beer/pub is the answer to everything. Birthday? Pub. Friday? Pub. None of them realise or probably give a damn about what's happening to me now. I'm just off sick. My manager probably wants to know whether or not I'll be back and if not how soon I'll be able to return my laptop and how soon they can start recruiting for my replacement. I am probably being a major nuisance and viewing it from the employer's perspective, well yes, the situation is not ideal.

Unfortunately I think one of the lessons it is trying to drum into me is that I am in the wrong job and have been for some time.

Ditto!

Did you try the personality type quiz? I came out as INFJ - interesting indeed! Job suggestions were writer, teacher, counsellor.

I can understand you being hesitant about losing salary and benefits but if you are in the wrong career for your personality then I think it can eat away at you and eventually grind you down. Imagine what it would be like to comfortably retire only to spend your days regretting your whole career and wishing you had followed your dreams instead? Loads of people switch careers in their 40s. Look at J. K. Rowling! This is what I'm doing right now. I'm literally at the fork in the road looking left and right.

Yvonne- you describe beautifully the result of all these traumas-meltdown! Couldn't have put it better. Depressed, lonely, wondering what the hell to do? Sounds awfully familiar to me...

Yes. Coping with adversity is one thing. Kicking a man when he's down is another. Everyone has a line - a threshold beyond which they reach breaking point. It's not a weakness it's purely a physical response to too much stress. Your body then triggers an internal barometer which (for your own protection) flares up to warn you that something is amiss and too many things have stacked up against you. Somebody recently said to me 'even superman gets help' and they were right. You can't do everything alone. Sometimes life deals you a series of blows and you start to think hang on, this is a bit unfair... why me? However, once you start digging and exploring you realise it's not just you and that others are prepared to understand and to help. It's then about building coping strategies and taking action.

My belief is that when things appear to keep going wrong or are extremely difficult, it could be a sign that you are on the wrong path. When doors start opening effortlessly for you then these are the signals to keep walking through those doors even if they take you in a whole new direction.

But the question is how do we rebuild something better and more resilient?

One brick at a time and with some good cement.

If the tower is wobbling then sometimes the best (and the safest) thing to do is demolish it and start again from scratch. There might only be rubble initially but once you start re-building, the end result is likely to be much better than it was before. You might even stand back one day and surprise yourself with how far you have come and what you have achieved.

It is possible!! I truly believe that.

I read a book by Paul McKenna recently and in it he asks you to consider your Big Dream.

He helps you to understand this by posing three key questions:


The most important things in the world to me are:

1. one
2. two
3. three
4. four
5. five

If I could be, do and have anything in the world, I would...

[Sum it up in a paragraph]

and finally,

I will know when I am succeeding when:

[Sum it up in a paragraph]

It's a very useful exercise to do privately as a way of understanding what your Big Dream is and how you'll recognise when you're succeeding.

Thing Big!!

Yvonne

[Gordon64]

Hi Yvonne

WOW!! Little did I know what I'd started with this thread but I'm glad I did-before I get on to addressing some of the points you made can I ask you where the Personality Type Quiz is that you refer to-I take it on the NMP site?-I'd be very interested in seeing what it makes of me!!

Taking your points one at a time- The Job- yeah I agree with you that most people in their 20's/30's reckon drinking and the pub are the answer to everything-I can't be too hypocritical here though-I was like that myself at that age (up to a point). That was before life came and gave me a right good kick up the arse though. I've now been teetotal 10 years, having realised, after many years of denial, that depression and alcohol don't mix-well not for me anyway.
I maybe (unintentionally) gave a slightly misleading impression of my job-it is very much at the low end of the corporate scale (that's not being falsely modest, just a fact), but it DOES pay enough for me to get by (just) and meet my commitments to the kids etc... Why do I not just jack it in? Answer in last sentence there-my children. They have been through a lot of upheaval with my divorce etc.. and don't feel like sitting down to explain that dad is having to downsize and move (again)-having said that I appreciate that knocking my pan in trying to maintain what I've got may lead to it all being academic anyway (if I go under through the pressure). And yes I agree with you-painful and hellish as our pain is to us it IS just another absence to our employers-and yes I am pragmatic enough to partly understand their point of view.

Notwithstanding all of the above I AM ONLY 45, I have been guilty of thinking myself old before my time (45 going on 65 etc...) easy to do in this current age when unless you are 20 and gorgeous/devastatingly handsome (I'm neither) then you may as well go and **** off as far as many are concerned. Nevertheless my viewpoint is GRADUALLY changing and I am beginning to think that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to take that BIG STEP-comes as quite a surprise to me to say this but I am no dummy and there MUST be something out there I could lend my talents to-I am sure that applies to you also.

Your synopsis of life and the "line" being crossed by too many knocks is very accurate-I guess we are roughly in the same place here having come through the "toys out the pram" stage and now trying to establish coping mechanisms and learning whatever it is it is all seeking to teach us.

I believe(and this I know is a strange thing to say coming from a depressive) that there is EVEN YET a fundamental optimism within me that this is all for a purpose and that I CAN emerge from it stronger, happier and more accepting of who I am. MY BIG DREAM? Haven't quite worked that out yet but I love the written word (really?!) and actually wanted to be a journalist when I was younger-don't know about that now but something in the therapy/counselling line does appeal because of my own experiences.

I DON'T REGRET the way my life has gone-yes there has been a helluva lot of crap but to regret it would suggest I regret my children and my friends and that is anything but the case.

I take heart from your comments and hope that you too come out of this surer and stronger and manage to achieve your goals. I certainly believe from your postings on here that you have the inner strength to do so.

Onward and UPward

G

[YvonneBelle]

Hi Gordon,

Here's the link as first posted by Mya about personality types.

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

Let us know.

I'll wager you come out similar to me!

Yvonne

[Gordon64]

Yvonne

ESFJ

So 50% of me is similar!!

Quite an interesting exercise! I tried not to overanalyse my answers and go for my gut instinct on each one.

Thanks for passing it on

G

[YvonneBelle]

Why do I not just jack it in? Answer in last sentence there-my children.

Are your kids old enough to talk about this with you and maybe help you? If they understood why you wanted to change careers and how you were worried about continuing to support them then they might even surprise you with their wisdom and understanding.

Kids sometimes know their parents better than their parents realise. I don't have kids but I know this from being a kid myself (once). I can read both parents like a book and if I thought they were somehow sacrificing their own happiness for me I'd be a bit sad. I'd much rather them try to be happy for themselves and in some respects be more of a fun, relaxed parent than always wearing a worry line on my behalf.

That said, I think it's very natural and perfectly understandable for a dad to want to provide for his kids!

BUT (I'm assuming) they would also like their daddy to be happy?

Yvonne