Political correctness

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think I am probably a “snowflake”, but I am also in my 40s now, and find it hard to keep up with all the rapid cultural developments. I think tolerance is important- crucial in fact. But I think tolerance needs to go both ways. I would never intentionally hurt someone’s feelings by referring to them with the wrong pronoun, but if I got it wrong because I am old and clumsy, I hope I would be treated with tolerance.
What I am saying is, from where I am sitting, it looks like fault is on both sides. And like oil and water, those sides are pushing each other further and further apart. It’s scary!

Like in politics though, don't forget about the moderates. Aren't they going to view both sides, the fringes, and think "what a bunch of morons" and dismiss them? Whilst opposites are attacking each other both sides just put off those nearer the centre and at the end of the day...shopping, paying bills, watching TV, going down the pub, etc all rumble on and the world is largely forgotten.

[Fishmanpa]

This was my Positive Thought for today... speaks volumes to the subject at hand.

"What we need to discover now in the social realm is the moral equivalent of war; something heroic that will speak to man as universally as war does, and yet will be as compatible with their spiritual selves as war has proved to be incompatible."

- William James (1842 - 1910)
American Philosopher and Psychologist

Positive thoughts

[jojo2316]

Like in politics though, don't forget about the moderates. Aren't they going to view both sides, the fringes, and think "what a bunch of morons" and dismiss them? Whilst opposites are attacking each other both sides just put off those nearer the centre and at the end of the day...shopping, paying bills, watching TV, going down the pub, etc all rumble on and the world is largely forgotten.

Do you think “moderates” are just as prevalent as they always were? It feels to me we are becoming an endangered species!!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Do you think “moderates” are just as prevalent as they always were? It feels to me we are becoming an endangered species!!

Perhaps we are just not seen? Social media is a massive boon to those who rant on soapboxes on either side of any issue.

I expect more are being drawn to the fringes, often just by feeling disenfranchised (it's Fight Club!) but I think most people are more bothered about who might jump into bed with who on Love Island than they are half of what we see in the media.

If you look at political voting how many people are true believers? How many are willing to join a party? I can't recall ever meeting someone who said they had. This is not to say they are all moderates but it's more likely the believers are going to join up I would have thought?

I think the media play a big role in this too. They are driving a narrative of everything being shite. They often base reporting on the worst case, just look at how hate crimes are skyrocketing (based on reporting) yet prosecutions aren't keeping pace. I accept this can be because of a lack of evidence or willingness (and money) to do so but also reporting has been pushed to make it more accessible and worthwhile. So, aren't we just seeing what was already there?

There is also a lot of nonsense about reporting too, no doubt as it can be manipulated. Certainly you will see one biased media outlet reporting a spike without reporting no spike in prosecutions to cover that period in the same way you will see another blame it all on immigrants or tell us xyz causes cancer without giving the conflicting information behind them.

P.S. I'm 43 so approaching auto enrolment into the Gammon club by some standards

[ankietyjoe]

How far can an individual expect other folks to acknowledge he or she’s gender identity or any other aspect of their ‘preferred’ status? Or how far can society be expected to tolerate the demands of the individual?

Why does it matter?

Using language like 'how can society be expected to tolerate' implies that there is some kind of unbearable burden on people to try and understand the choices or instincts of others.

If somebody identifies as part way between male or female, how does it affect another person in any way?

[BlueIris]

If somebody identifies as part way between male or female, how does it affect another person in any way?

Exactly. I can understand how people might forget, but what's the harm in referring to a person in the way they wish?

[MyNameIsTerry]

The 6ft bearded male mentioned is one that needs more information. There are going to be piss takers, and they make it harder for LGBT+ people, and this was within the role of assessing benefits claimants.

However, religious people need to remember that laws trump ideology. If they believe their adherence to that higher code can't be sacrificed then they will need to accept they are the Christians and the law is the Romans.

Are the definitions clear enough? Are they distributed to everyone who needs them? Going back to my management days I would say no. Diversity training was fluffy stuff telling you to be open to others (which should go without saying) and focussed more on traditional gay roles and race. I hope such courses have greatly improved because it's hard to keep track of everything and most of us reading specific LGBT+ literature aren't going to be aware of it all. I would hate to ever upset someone by not using the correct terms but when under stress it can happen.

Going back to rules for a moment. Religion doesn't trump work rules either. Like the law they are inclusive of religion (to a point) but not when they infringe on others.

I doubt the doctor will get as much support by allowing the Christian Legal Centre into this as they back people who truly do discriminate. Remember the teacher who wouldn't use the correct pronoun...but he was also bullying with sly digs and waffling about things not even supported by the curriculum as well as trying to convert people.

[ankietyjoe]

“A society is a group of individuals involved in persistent social interaction, or a large social group sharing the same geographical or social territory, typically subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations.” My underlining but not my words; they are those of the Wikipedia definition (which is broadly in line with any other definition of the same word).

Then a broader set of definitions needs rethinking.

It was once expected that women shut their stupid fvcking mouths and did what they're told. In fact, it still is in some parts of the world. Luckily, things can change and people can become less judgemental and idiotic. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.

My ironic overtly judgmental reaction at judgemental people is not lost on me....

[FrankT]

Interesting observation, Frank. Would you like to elaborate on what you mean?

Simple - the term is just a means to an end. Why should I sugarcoat my words to avoid offending someone who needs to be told something bluntly? If I have to tell it like it is, I have that right. So does everyone else.

[BlueIris]

Simple - the term is just a means to an end. Why should I sugarcoat my words to avoid offending someone who needs to be told something bluntly? If I have to tell it like it is, I have that right. So does everyone else.

Yes, you have that right. That doesn't mean it's always necessary to exercise it. I don't think it's often strictly necessary to be blunt to the point of causing upset.

Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly capable of flat-out rudeness myself, but I try to be honest with myself about my own frustrations rather than kidding myself I'm doing it out of some sort of higher moral imperative.