Results 1 to 10 of 49

Thread: Imipramine or Clomipramine

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,592

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by SideFX View Post
    Another few years passed and I again came off my med, same reason as last time. And after a few months the old feelings were returning. So I reached for my Peroxatine again and the start up anxiety hit me. But I though I would be fine in 4/5 weeks. Well I was wrong as with each passing week I was sinking further and further until I felt like I was having seizures.
    Your experience isn't unusual. There is now considerable evidence that ADs, especially the SSRIs, can become progressively less effective every time they are stopped and restarted, often requiring higher doses to achieve the previous level of control, or not working at all. They may also produce more severe, and/or different, initial side-effects. Two studies, Amsterdam JD, 2016 and Amsterdam JD, 2009, found the likelihood of antidepressants working after each restart drops by between 19-25% (see also: Bosman RC, 2018; Amsterdam JD, 2009; Leykin Y, 2007; Paholpak S, 2002).

    Anyway I did some research and heard that Venlafaxine was a good AD, so I asked to be switched to it and it had no effect, no side effects either. I was then referred to a psychiatrist who raised my Diazipam and kept raising Venlafaxine until I hit 375mg and couldn’t go higher...I was by now even deeper than ever before and losing touch with everything.
    Despite what is says on the tin, venlafaxine is only a SSRI, not a SNRI, and has few advantages over the others and several significant disadvantages.

    The other issue may have been the diazepam. Benzodiazepines (BZDs) may significantly reduce the effectiveness of antidepressants by blocking hippocampal neurogenesis which is how ADs create the therapeutic response (see: Boldrini M, 2014; Nochi R, 2013; --Sun Y, 2013; Song J, 2012; Wu X, 2009; Stefovska VG, 2008).

    In light of these studies benzodiazepines use should probably be limited to a couple of weeks when first taking antidepressants just to ease the initial increase in anxiety levels, for a while after AD dose increases for the same reason and thereafter for occasional breakthrough anxiety. If an antidepressant isn't adequately controlling anxiety on its own even at the maximum recommended or tolerated dose then switching to another which might be more effective should be considered ahead of supplementing it with a benzodiazepine.

    I got out after about 6 weeks still in a mess and on Mirtazipine, Trazadone and Diazipam. My Pdoc tried many add ons like quitipine, lithium and lomotrigine. Non of which I could tolerate nor did they help...I ended up back in hospital and they took me off quitipine and Trazadone and put me on Brintellix/Trintellix with Lyrica.
    Unfortunately, it is an all too often seen outcome once psychiatrists use up their personal small bag of tricks so resort to just throwing more and more drugs at the problem without rhyme, or reason in the usually vain hope that something will stick.

    I’m currently on:

    Brintellix 20mg
    Mirtazipine 30mg
    Lyrica 600mg
    Diazipam 10mg

    I am suffering everyday, but I have focus to work, albeit I’m constantly on the edge of panic and feel like crying, which has become a big part of my condition this time (I never had it before) my symptom mix is the different, but the same if that makes sense !!!
    Vortioxetine (Brintellix, now Trintellix) is on paper a superior SSRI, but it hasn't set the world on fire. Mirtazapine is, as with venlafaxine, not what it claims on the tin. It is really only a sedative, not an antidepressant (and a powerful antihistamine). I don't understand the point of prescribing both pregabalin (Lyrica) and diazepam as they do the same thing, slowing neuron firing, albeit by different means. Diazepam does it by increasing the influx of negatively charged chlorine ions into cells which makes it harder for them to reach their depolarisation ('firing') voltage, pregabalin by inhibiting the ingress of positively charged calcium ions. There may be a rationale for preferring pregabalin over diazepam, but if you're also going to prescribe the BZD anyway then you might as well prescribe it at a high enough dose to do the job on its own as it is generally more effective than pregabalin.

    Now to the point, my mum was originally on an MAOI, then got took off that in the 80’s I think, she went through the wash out and then started Imipramine and was good after a few weeks on new med. she kept on with her 3mg of Lorazepam....So I’ve wondered if Imipramine might be good for me.
    I can't say whether imipramine will work for you, but the chances are pretty good. Imipramine was for many decades the 'gold standard' AD for panic disorder. Doctors now prefer to prescribe SSRIs and SNRIs because they are perceived to be safer in overdose, which isn't actually true of all of them, and to have fewer ongoing side-effects which is true, but often at the expense of more severe initial side-effects and harder withdrawals, not because they are more effective. TCAs are generally superior in performance, although, as with everything antidepressant, individual results may vary.

    But I’m so frightened of going through more med switching and don’t want to lose everything I’ve worked so hard for..
    From what you've written vortioxetine isn't actually doing that much so will you really lose anything by quitting? I suspect it's mainly the mirtazapine, pregabalin and diazepam doing the heavy lifting. You could continue to take them while waiting for the imipramine to kick-in.

    .Its the tachycardia that scares me and the withdrawal from brintellix.
    Did you had problems with tachycardia on venlafaxine? It is more cardio-toxic than the TCAs, except dosulepin. Imipramine was the first AD I took at doses of up to 350mg/day. Few doctors would prescribe that high a dose even for hospital inpatients, but my heart didn't care (still doesn't with the even more cardio toxic TCA (dosulepin) I'm now on despite being 30 years older).

    I need help and the doctors are lost and they will go with whatever I want (Exept MOAI’s)
    Why not a MAOI? They are generally the most effective ADs often working when nothing else will. There used to be issues with diet which is why I stopped taking phenelzine (Nardil) back in the day despite it being the best AD I've tried, but modern food processing techniques have eliminated most of the problems and adding a small supplementary dose of the TCA nortriptyline will block any blood-pressure spikes if one of the few remaining tyramine rich foods is inadvertently eaten. Should dosulepin ever poop-out on me the first thing I'll be trying is tranylcypromine (Parnate).
    __________________
    The opinions expressed above are based on my observations and, where applicable, interpretation of cited data and are general in nature. Consult your physician before acting on anything stated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    63

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by panic_down_under View Post
    Your experience isn't unusual. There is now considerable evidence that ADs, especially the SSRIs, can become progressively less effective every time they are stopped and restarted, often requiring higher doses to achieve the previous level of control, or not working at all. They may also produce more severe, and/or different, initial side-effects. Two studies, Amsterdam JD, 2016 and Amsterdam JD, 2009, found the likelihood of antidepressants working after each restart drops by between 19-25% (see also: Bosman RC, 2018; Amsterdam JD, 2009; Leykin Y, 2007; Paholpak S, 2002).



    Despite what is says on the tin, venlafaxine is only a SSRI, not a SNRI, and has few advantages over the others and several significant disadvantages.

    The other issue may have been the diazepam. Benzodiazepines (BZDs) may significantly reduce the effectiveness of antidepressants by blocking hippocampal neurogenesis which is how ADs create the therapeutic response (see: Boldrini M, 2014; Nochi R, 2013; --Sun Y, 2013; Song J, 2012; Wu X, 2009; Stefovska VG, 2008).

    In light of these studies benzodiazepines use should probably be limited to a couple of weeks when first taking antidepressants just to ease the initial increase in anxiety levels, for a while after AD dose increases for the same reason and thereafter for occasional breakthrough anxiety. If an antidepressant isn't adequately controlling anxiety on its own even at the maximum recommended or tolerated dose then switching to another which might be more effective should be considered ahead of supplementing it with a benzodiazepine.



    Unfortunately, it is an all too often seen outcome once psychiatrists use up their personal small bag of tricks so resort to just throwing more and more drugs at the problem without rhyme, or reason in the usually vain hope that something will stick.



    Vortioxetine (Brintellix, now Trintellix) is on paper a superior SSRI, but it hasn't set the world on fire. Mirtazapine is, as with venlafaxine, not what it claims on the tin. It is really only a sedative, not an antidepressant (and a powerful antihistamine). I don't understand the point of prescribing both pregabalin (Lyrica) and diazepam as they do the same thing, slowing neuron firing, albeit by different means. Diazepam does it by increasing the influx of negatively charged chlorine ions into cells which makes it harder for them to reach their depolarisation ('firing') voltage, pregabalin by inhibiting the ingress of positively charged calcium ions. There may be a rationale for preferring pregabalin over diazepam, but if you're also going to prescribe the BZD anyway then you might as well prescribe it at a high enough dose to do the job on its own as it is generally more effective than pregabalin.



    I can't say whether imipramine will work for you, but the chances are pretty good. Imipramine was for many decades the 'gold standard' AD for panic disorder. Doctors now prefer to prescribe SSRIs and SNRIs because they are perceived to be safer in overdose, which isn't actually true of all of them, and to have fewer ongoing side-effects which is true, but often at the expense of more severe initial side-effects and harder withdrawals, not because they are more effective. TCAs are generally superior in performance, although, as with everything antidepressant, individual results may vary.



    From what you've written vortioxetine isn't actually doing that much so will you really lose anything by quitting? I suspect it's mainly the mirtazapine, pregabalin and diazepam doing the heavy lifting. You could continue to take them while waiting for the imipramine to kick-in.



    Did you had problems with tachycardia on venlafaxine? It is more cardio-toxic than the TCAs, except dosulepin. Imipramine was the first AD I took at doses of up to 350mg/day. Few doctors would prescribe that high a dose even for hospital inpatients, but my heart didn't care (still doesn't with the even more cardio toxic TCA (dosulepin) I'm now on despite being 30 years older).



    Why not a MAOI? They are generally the most effective ADs often working when nothing else will. There used to be issues with diet which is why I stopped taking phenelzine (Nardil) back in the day despite it being the best AD I've tried, but modern food processing techniques have eliminated most of the problems and adding a small supplementary dose of the TCA nortriptyline will block any blood-pressure spikes if one of the few remaining tyramine rich foods is inadvertently eaten. Should dosulepin ever poop-out on me the first thing I'll be trying is tranylcypromine (Parnate).
    Thanks Ian

    i take all your points and thank you so much for going to such trouble and detail in replying to each point in my post...Totally agree that Venlafaxine is basically an SSRI and I didn’t get tachycardia from it. It was like taking smarties and as you say I feel my body is now rejecting all SRI medication.

    however I feel that as my mum did so well on the older AD’s MOAI’s and TCA’s that should be my direction of travel, starting with a decent TCA like imipramine and if it’s worked on a direct relative I’m hoping it will help me.

    i also agree that Mirtazipine is basically a very potent antihistamine and barely touches Serotonin or Noradrenaline. Also with the ven and Mirt combo I was strong enough to tapper off 25mg Diazipam.

    i also think your right in that brintellix is causing more problems and side effects than helping....However I’m scared and waiting to pull the trigger on that.

    reason being I’ve just started a new job, but struggling to keep it all together!!!!
    Thank you very much I hope you don’t mind me using this forum as my sounding board, till I take that leap of faith J

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,592

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by SideFX View Post
    I hope you don’t mind me using this forum as my sounding board, till I take that leap of faith J
    Sure. This is what the forum is for.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    63

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by panic_down_under View Post
    Sure. This is what the forum is for.
    Thanks Ian

    One thing I don’t understand is how the mechanism of action differs between SSRI’s and TCA’s and why this leads to less activating start up effects.

    Also as anxiety is the major component of my depressive illness, is imipramine a good choice...I know it was the gold standard AD prior to the creation of SSRI’s and I’m familiar with Ken Gillman’s website too, which has been a good source of knowledge, albeit some of his stuff goes over my head. Especially when he gets into the biology

    BTW
    I do believe I suffer biological anxiety and depression, as it has responded to meds so well in the past. Would you agree will my thoughts on this point...Thank you very much

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,592

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by SideFX View Post
    One thing I don’t understand is how the mechanism of action differs between SSRI’s and TCA’s and why this leads to less activating start up effects.
    It is partly due to the combination of receptors each effect in addition to the serotonin and noradrenaline/norepinephrine transporters and also TCA starting doses tend to be lower relative to their therapeutic range.

    Also as anxiety is the major component of my depressive illness, is imipramine a good choice...I know it was the gold standard AD prior to the creation of SSRI’s
    TCAs are generally a little more effective for anxiety and significantly more effective for depression than SSRIs. SSRIs are generally better at mitigating anxiety than depression...provided you can get past the initial heightened anxiety they often trigger.

    I do believe I suffer biological anxiety and depression, as it has responded to meds so well in the past.
    There is only biological anxiety and depression (and every other 'mental' illness, a term I dislike because it misleads folk). These disorders are the emotional manifestation of biological changes (PDF) in the hippocampal regions of the brain caused by an auto-immune type response, not of the mind. The mind has no independent existence, it is a construct of the brain and so can't be independently diseased, or otherwise damaged. ADs reverse the hippocampal changes. So can the mind. Therapies such as CBT, REBT and mindfulness work by the same process as ADs, neurogenesis.
    __________________
    The opinions expressed above are based on my observations and, where applicable, interpretation of cited data and are general in nature. Consult your physician before acting on anything stated.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    63

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by panic_down_under View Post
    It is partly due to the combination of receptors each effect in addition to the serotonin and noradrenaline/norepinephrine transporters and also TCA starting doses tend to be lower relative to their therapeutic range.



    TCAs are generally a little more effective for anxiety and significantly more effective for depression than SSRIs. SSRIs are generally better at mitigating anxiety than depression...provided you can get past the initial heightened anxiety they often trigger.



    There is only biological anxiety and depression (and every other 'mental' illness, a term I dislike because it misleads folk). These disorders are the emotional manifestation of biological changes (PDF) in the hippocampal regions of the brain caused by an auto-immune type response, not of the mind. The mind has no independent existence, it is a construct of the brain and so can't be independently diseased, or otherwise damaged. ADs reverse the hippocampal changes. So can the mind. Therapies such as CBT, REBT and mindfulness work by the same process as ADs, neurogenesis.
    Again thank you Ian

    I didn’t mention that the Brintellix has caused bruxism right from day one, but the Pregabalin masked it till it wore off (circa 6.5hr half life) Pdoc thinks that reducing Mirtazipine would help...I disagreed as Mirt has little to no affinity for serotonin.

    But I was sick and tired of changing meds and have never felt that it truly helped over the past 2 plus years...I feel it has raised serotonin as you would expect it to do, but that has come at a cost of SideFX. I need a med that suits me, without the horrendous effects that SSRI’s give me and I’ve never properly tried a therapeutic dose of a TCA for a reasonable time.

    I don’t really count 2 days on amitriptyline and they were with doluxatine, so that muddied the waters. And as my mum did so well for so many years on imipramine, after withdrawal from an MAOI, I don’t know why the Pdocs haven’t tried it...I’ve told him many times (They seem to be so passive) and state it’s not all about meds you know...Hey tell me something I don’t know, but when your fighting against your meds, there’s something wrong.

    Also because I’m a high functioning person with depression and anxiety, they just pay lip service to our 3 monthly appointments. And point blank refuse Nardil or Parnate !!! But are happy to go with any TCA I suggest.

    Thanks for all your little nuggets of knowledge and any more would be welcomed, particularly around imipramine thanks John

    Ps
    I know you were on imipramine for a number of years...I’ve read some previous posts. How did you find it and what condition(s) was it prescribed for ???? Many Thanks

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    3,592

    Re: Imipramine or Clomipramine

    Quote Originally Posted by SideFX View Post
    I didn’t mention that the Brintellix has caused bruxism right from day one
    Bruxism is a relatively common side-effect of ADs, but anxiety can trigger it too.

    I feel it has raised serotonin as you would expect it to do, but that has come at a cost of SideFX.
    SSRIs may not be doing what you think they do: Serotonin - The 'chemical imbalance' myth

    I don’t really count 2 days on amitriptyline and they were with doluxatine, so that muddied the waters.
    Yep, you can't really judge a med under that circumstance. Duloxetine is the pick of the common SNRIs because it actually is one, but it can produce severe side-effects at the beginning. The less common SNRIs milnacipran and levomilnacipran may be the pick of the bunch, although data is scarce.

    And as my mum did so well for so many years on imipramine, after withdrawal from an MAOI, I don’t know why the Pdocs haven’t tried it...I’ve told him many times (They seem to be so passive) and state it’s not all about meds you know...
    They all have their individual box of tricks which they use on everyone and soon get lost when the patients don't do what is expected of them by failing to get better. That's when many go into poly-pharmacy mode. Plus, unless they are offering therapy isn't it actually "all about the meds"?

    Also because I’m a high functioning person with depression and anxiety, they just pay lip service to our 3 monthly appointments. And point blank refuse Nardil or Parnate !!! But are happy to go with any TCA I suggest.
    Don't let them get away with it. You're paying for their time, directly or indirectly, so insist on getting your money's worth.

    I'm not surprised at the refusal to prescribe MAOIs. Unless they are in the sixties they've likely never been exposed to them and the data on MAOIs is way out of date. Unfortunately, there is no pressing reason for the powers to be to change this. Ken Gillman is about the only one trying to drum up interest and he'll almost certainly fail, just as his efforts to correct the BS about serotonin syndrome has mostly fallen on deaf ears among the WHO, FDA, MHRA, TGA, etc, decision makers and med journals.

    I know you were on imipramine for a number of years...I’ve read some previous posts. How did you find it and what condition(s) was it prescribed for ???? Many Thanks
    It was the first med I was put on for panic disorder back in early 1987. No SSRIs back then, which was fortunate as they don't mesh well with my biology. I was on it, off and on, for about 8 years mostly at 300-350mg/day (which would horrify most psychiatrists these days, but the bloke that developed it took 1,000mg/day for a while without issue - that was back in the good ol' days when drug developers were their own guinea pigs). It worked well and the only side-effects of note was dry-mouth and moderate sexual dysfunction, plus a slight head shake at 350mg which seemed to be only apparent to me. I switched to dosulepin in ~1996 because the common wisdom of the time was that it was the safest TCA and produced fewer side-effects. Turns out the first was 210% wrong, it is the most cardio-toxic AD by a significant margin, but the second is true. I have no discernable side-effects.
    __________________
    The opinions expressed above are based on my observations and, where applicable, interpretation of cited data and are general in nature. Consult your physician before acting on anything stated.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Imipramine or Clomipramine
    By Mermaid16 in forum Anafranil / Clomipramine
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 22-04-19, 22:32
  2. clomipramine and imipramine for social anxiety
    By farshad in forum Anafranil / Clomipramine
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-01-19, 21:34
  3. Imipramine
    By Lee2475 in forum Medication
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13-03-15, 17:10
  4. Imipramine/Clomipramine
    By dan1234 in forum Anafranil / Clomipramine
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-07-12, 17:56
  5. imipramine
    By Attsila in forum Medication
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-07-06, 18:26

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •